PO4x4 = iron based polymer?

[2thdeekay]

Yes, nobody denied GFO leaches iron ions, it's a moot point.

I do not doubt that GFO releases soluble iron. I also do not consider that a problem. I add iron to my system.

@ ocean pH, Fe ions don't stay in solution well, and get utilized by organisms fairly quickly. At the ocean's surface, Fe is very low, @ ~0.000006 ppm. So, to imply that there is a problem with leaking iron ions equivalent to 10x the concentration of seawater is most likely pointless.

Are those extra iron ions harmful, or beneficial to your system? That's the real question!

Iron in a Reef Tank
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Iron: A Look At Organisms Other Than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/chemistry

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think there are some potential issues here, not least of which is that the test you are using may well detect particulates as soluble iron. The same way a calcium kit will. They may all have the same levels of soluble iron, just different levels of particulates.

That said...

So I think their claim of not leaking iron ion into water column is actually... true!

True? What value does the meter read on the starting DI water? 0.05 ppm is a LOT of iron! I realize that you used a lot of GFO in a small amount of water, but bear in mind that the NSW level of iron is on the order of 0.000006 ppm, so even accounting for dilution effects, that is a lot if real and accurate.

 

[dzhuo]

Thx for doing this Acrotrdco! The test is very informative. It's very surprise to see how clean PO4x4 is which is really what I am mostly interested about; rinsing GFO media is not fun at all.

Other than the iron leaching aspect of PO4x4, how are your general impression with this product so far? Have you seen your phosphate drop?

 

[Acrotrdco]

er.. ok let me rephase myself better.

Rowaphos, common GFO and PO4x4 all leaks iron ion into the water column, but PO4x4 leaks less, comparing to the others.

Cool?

Thx for doing this Acrotrdco! The test is very informative. It's very surprise to see how clean PO4x4 is which is really what I am mostly interested about; rinsing GFO media is not fun at all.

Other than the iron leaching aspect of PO4x4, how are your general impression with this product so far? Have you seen your phosphate drop?

My PO4 was at 0.015 level before using PO4x4 (I was using Rowaphos), and after switching to 50ml of PO4x4, I have not measured any change in my PO4, and I've been feeding quite heavily lately since I've introduced a few new fishes to my tank, trying to make them to start feeding on frozen food.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, yes and no. We need to be very careful what we conclude.

Release of particles, no matter how small, does not imply any availability of the iron for uptake into organisms (like microalgae or corals), or availability to function as a catalyst for precipitation of CaCO3. It may simply be solids that will settle out in the tank like fine sand.


For many purposes, it is the true soluble iron that is the concern. To separate out the solids, one could probably centrifuge them out, or remove them by ultrafiltration as through a dialysis membrane.

So to that extent, I'm not sure one can make a conclusion about the differences, if any, in such an experiment, except that there is the potenntial for more total iron to get into the system from the uncoated ones.

To expand a bit why I'm concerned, the methods used in such an iron test will usually involve binding the iron to a dye. Strongly binding it so one can be sure that all available iron is bound. Under these circumstances, iron may be dissolved off of particles and appear as soluble iron when in reality, it was originally present as a particle.

The same sort of thing is well known to happen in calcium and alkalinity tests, where solids dissolve during the testing, but which do not reflect real available calcium or alkalinity in the water.

 

[Acrotrdco]

Thanks Randy.

I agree with you that the methods used in these hobby-grade iron tests will never be able to 100% accurately measure the actual concentration of iron in the water column, even Hanna lists the spec of their colorimeter as:

HI 721 spec :
Range : 0.00 to 5.00 ppm
Resolution : 0.01 ppm
Accuracy : +-0.04 ppm +-2% of reading

But given that all the 4 tests were done using very similar approach to minimize the margin of error, then like you said "there is the potenntial for more total iron to get into the system from the uncoated ones. "

I also agree with 2thdeekay that the actual concentration of iron in the ocean is a lot lower, I've read research paper that actually performed tests on adding iron into the ocean to grow photoplankton, to absorb more CO2 into the ocean.

There's also an unproven claim by Russ George, stating “Give me half a tanker of iron and I will give you an ice age.”
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread484475/pg1

Answering 2thdeekay's question:
"Are those extra iron ions harmful, or beneficial to your system? That's the real question!"

I've no doubt the extra iron isn't harmful, or even beneficial since it'll enhance the green pigment in some of my SPS's, so I don't mind having a little extra iron at all.

I'll conclude this report by saying, I pleasantly enjoyed the fact that I don't need to rinse the PO4x4 prior to adding them to my system, it absorbs PO4 just as well as GFO does. It's even a lot more reactor-friendly than GFO's because of its pellet-like property. Also there is the potential for PO4x4 to leak less iron ion into the water column, which is fine for those who might be experiencing some algae problem and wanted to get their iron concentration lower.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As long as you like the results of using it, there's certainly no reason to not do so.

 

[jtma508]

I just started using it myself. For sure, not having to rinse is a big plus but I also find that the granules seem to stay better suspended in the reactor which would presumably present a larger surface area to the water flow. I also noticed with regular GFO (BRS) that after awhile the GFO would cake-up and water wouldn't flow quite as uniformly through the mass.

 

[SimonSKL]

I am also excited about the claim that this product can be regenerated 20 times or more using the regeneration buffer which will be coming out soon.

 

[2thdeekay]

I am also excited about the claim that this product can be regenerated 20 times or more using the regeneration buffer which will be coming out soon.

I'm curious to see if anyone has compared it to BA's Phosphat-R? I wouldn't be surprised if it is a clone product, from same mfr.

 

[dzhuo]

How does the product holding up? Update?

 

[MaLi]

Nice discussion gentlemen. Thanks for sharing.

Here is a practical observation: About 3 months ago I replaced a GFO reactor (using High capacity BRS) with an Algae Scrubber. Though my Elos Phosphate test was always showing zero I had to clean the glass every three days or so. Now, after 3 months the need for cleaning drifted to almost a week. It is known that diatoms thrive on Iron so at this time I suspect the needed Iron was coming from GFO. Time will further tell, but this is not a coincidence.

Nothing has changed on other water parameters and the ATS is still not working as it should.

cheers,
Marian

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd not seen any information suggesting that diatoms need iron more than any other algae. What have you read?

 

[jtma508]

I've been using it for just about a month now after having used BRS GAC for about 3yrs. I'll tell you that the granules tend to stay suspended (with regular GAC it would tend to cake and slow the reactor after awhile). I have noticed significantly reduced diatom blooms since I've been using it.

 

[2thdeekay]

Do you mean BRS's GFO? Updates?

I've been using it for just about a month now after having used BRS GAC for about 3yrs. I'll tell you that the granules tend to stay suspended (with regular GAC it would tend to cake and slow the reactor after awhile). I have noticed significantly reduced diatom blooms since I've been using it.

 

[jtma508]

yea, sorry GFO. Still seems to be doing what it's supposed to.

 

[Plato]

Been using for about a month now. Liking it more than gfo. It is performing very well. Excited about the ability to regenerate. The beads look like resin beads from a di cartridge or water softener.

 

[dzhuo]

Any update on this product?

 

[glweek]

id like to know as well

 

[Isayso]

id like to know as well

yes me too im about to order some