Pod-maximizing refugia

[rlpardue]

Hi everyone,

I originally posted this in the General Discussion section but decided to move it because I want to encourage a thoughtful and patient discussion of an important subject.

My goal for this thread will be to invite collaborative input on how to MAXIMIZE POD PRODUCTION in refugia! I feel that this purpose of refugia is always overlooked in online forums, or diverted into related topics (e.g., nitrate reduction, DSB vs BB, caulerpa vs chaeto, flow, etc). Now some of those topics DO have a bearing on the production of pods, and to the extent that such topics are relevant to pod production, they are acceptable topics for discussion here. Other than that, such topics are best left to other threads. I invite you all to offer experiences, links, and even hearsay so that we can get a good discussion going for posterity regarding how to maximize refugia-generated zooplankton, pods, microfauna for feeding a Display Tank.

To start with, we shall assume that one purpose of refugia is to provide a predator-free zone in which small crustaceans and other life forms can FEED, BREED, and flow into a DT as FOOD for corals and fish. Thus, RDSBs for nitrate reduction would be located in a separate refugium.

Query #1: Sand Bed

There are several alternatives available when it comes to sand (or the lack thereof). Bare-bottomed refugia make it easier to keep detritus from settling, but also do not provide a habitat for those organisms which live in, or lay eggs within, a sandbed. Therefore, I think that BB refugia will generally be excluded from this section because, whatever their benefits, they are not ideal environments for the purpose herein (producing microfauna).

RDSB vs. SSB (Remote Deep Sand Bed vs Shallow Sand Bed)
Does anyone have any knowledge of the extent to which a DSB located in a refugium would contribute to a greater number and VARIETY of micro-food critters making their way to the DT? THIS WOULD BE A GREAT AREA FOR INPUT! There is practically nothing online on this subject other than occasional references by Ron Shimek.

There are a number of reasons not to run a RDSB, but is pod production one of the reasons in favor of a DSB generally?

Also, do the various types of "Miracle Mud" products contribute to animal life in any way, either directly or indirectly (e.g.-they feed plants, plants feed animals)?

PLANT LIFE LOCATED IN REFUGIA
To what extent does plant life contribute to pod production within a refugium? I have heard that dosing phytoplankton to a refugium is one way to greatly improve the production of food organisms.

MACROALGAE - Given the fact that whenever I prune balls of chaeto, there are a TON of little copepods and amphipods which fall out, I imagine that they are either feeding directly on such macros, or feeding on something else that feeds on macros. Is there any data for this? How best to maximize pod-production with the use of various macros?

LIVE ROCK
Since LR brings such critters into our aquariums, we can assume for this thread that there will at least be a small quantity of LR in the POD-FUGE. For nutrient-export reasons, people may opt to raise LR above the level of sand, place LR in higher-flow areas, etc.

WATER FLOW
To what extent does water flow impact the productivity of a POD-FUGE?

TO LIGHT, OR NOT TO LIGHT?
To what extent does light, or the lack thereof, contribute to the production of microfauna? I've read somewhere that it is important to have a "dark period" in a refugium since some animals only feed in the dark. Is this true? (If so, we will all be frustrated that we ever added Caulerpa lol - do some research on this if you don't understand)

OTHER AREAS OF INTEREST
Are there any other practices which contribute to improved diversity and quantity of animal life in refugia?

I appreciate everyone's feedback and input here. I think that maximizing production of micro-fauna is a neglected purpose of refugia, and that our corals and fish will appreciate an increase in the amount of such "zooplankton" critters that refugiums are capable of producing.


Thanks!
Lee

 

[zachfishman]

Hopping on. I want to hear what other reefers have to say, I plan to plumb a refugium into my future reef to support a mandarin one day.

I don't know about sand, but a lot of pods inhabit the rubble bottomed sections of our frag tanks at work...

 

[rwb500]

i think the ideal refugium for this purpose would have a thin layer of sand, a layer and/or piles of rubble, gentle flow (middle section of most sumps is perfect i think), and lots of chaeto with no more than 18 hrs/day of light.

the ideal setup would also drain into the display, rather than being pumped. but that is usually not possible to achieve in most peoples setups. can someone link to a good discussion about pods vs. return pumps? I forget what the general consensus is.

 

[bjensen1253]

I have a 4inch sand bed in the display of my 220 which is really clean, losts of bristle worms and things all over the place. I also have a RBDB. My sump consists of 2 40 breeds the 2nd tank is a refug only. It has a 8inch sandbed with life rock and all kinds of crazy macro algae. I actually enjoy looking at my sump more then my display tank(sad i know). The flow through that 1 40 breeder is about 3,000 gallons per hour. I have observered very very large pod hanging out in there on the rock, some are about the size of a nickle. Another cool thing i noticed was mysis. I actually have mysis that live and breed in my sump. I didnt realize they can survive the freezing processes and hatch eggs. This was VERY cool to see. not to mention all the starfish stomella snails, brittle starfish ext that i see in there. I actually run my hand through the macro algae in my sump once a week and ring out my cheato to put more pods in my tank. I have also seen mysis free swimming before getting eaten.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Also, what about macro algae type? Cheato is the most common macro algae by far but I have been experimenting recently with Red Titan algae and it seems to do the job just as well but is much easier to manage and is more pleasing to look at for everyone. Both algae types provide ample surface area to hide and forage but I don't know if the pods are technically foraging off the macro plant. Anyone know for sure?

 

[DonCorsean]

"Areas with high boat traffic did have a higher occurrence of copepod fatalities. Samples had shown 34% of copepods were dead in a highly-traveled channel while only 5-6% were dead in a marina and along a shoreline. The team discovered more copepod carcasses were found inside boat wakes (14%) than outside boat wakes (7%) and the amount of dead copepods increased with increasing turbulence intensity.

This suggests that turbulence generated by boats can be an important source of mortality among copepods," Bickel added. "œThis could have a number of important impacts within aquatic systems."


Read more:

http://r-e-e-f-b-u-i-l-d-e-r-s.com/2011/04/21/reef-aquarium-blend/

Interesting article

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Ron Reefman]

Chris, can you post a pic of the Red Titan macro algae? I have mostly chaeto in my sump (2' x 2' x 18"), but I have some red/purple leafy algae growing in my 75g anemone tank (attached to the same system). It grows some, as does my chaeto, but neither grows very fast. I think it's due to zero nitrates in the system (fuge with macro algae, 2' x 2' x 8" DSB, diy coil denitrator and 200+ lbs of very healthy LR).

To the OP, I had my DSB and refugium in the same 2' x 2' x 18" section of the sump and it worked OK for nutrient export but I didn't have a lot of pods. I've moved the fuge into the 2' x 2' section before the DSB which was a frag tank before. I haven't noticed any big change in pod numbers over the last 4-5 months even though I seeded the fuge with some live pods.

I think this is a very interesting topic and I hope it gets a lot of replies.

 

[patchesj]

Also curious about this, starting up my own new tank with HOB refugium. I've opted for a 3" sand bed and some LR rubble pieces from the main tank.

One point on lighting, I would think that pods reproduce and have a life cycle based on photo periods. They are probably also lunar cycle dependent, but that is a whole other thread. This should lend itself to as close to a 12 hour "day" as possible, but could be offset from the main tank for PH purposes assuming macro algae growth in refugium.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Chris, can you post a pic of the Red Titan macro algae? I have mostly chaeto in my sump (2' x 2' x 18"), but I have some red/purple leafy algae growing in my 75g anemone tank (attached to the same system). It grows some, as does my chaeto, but neither grows very fast. I think it's due to zero nitrates in the system (fuge with macro algae, 2' x 2' x 8" DSB, diy coil denitrator and 200+ lbs of very healthy LR).

To the OP, I had my DSB and refugium in the same 2' x 2' x 18" section of the sump and it worked OK for nutrient export but I didn't have a lot of pods. I've moved the fuge into the 2' x 2' section before the DSB which was a frag tank before. I haven't noticed any big change in pod numbers over the last 4-5 months even though I seeded the fuge with some live pods.

I think this is a very interesting topic and I hope it gets a lot of replies.

Ron, Here is the Red Titan you asked about. This picture is a couple of months old now and the macro has nearly doubled since then. In fact, I put the extra macro in the little 10 gal pod tank to the right of the 40G. The growth really took off after turned up the lighting with a 120 watt Chinese LED unit. In addition to the macro, I also run bio-pellets and some GFO. My PO4 hovers around 0.07 and NO3 is always 0. I see plenty of rotifers and amphipods growing in and around it but I can't specifically say that I have alot of copepods as they are difficult to see for me. I have no idea if green cheato is preferred over red or even if it matters for that matter but was curious.

For more close up red titan pics, check out http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2230663
Saltwaternoob17 is the RC member that I got mine from and she has better pics.

 

[symon_say]

Interesting thread, i hope we get to some conclusion, what i have notice in my tank is that pods population grow when i feed heavily.

I will start feeding phyto to the fuge to see if this helps.

About substrate maybe instead of sand we can use crushed coral size aragonite or any kind of small rubble it will be better for small pods.

 

[Moort82]

I believe that a large variation of habitats will offer the most diversity. I've been a advocate of natural filtration so have mostly this type on my tank. I split this into several smaller tanks to see what was going on. This includes two different dsb's, several algae refugiums and a mud mangrove setup.
As these are all on the same system i will describe briefly what i find in each. Please note the dsb's aren't lit by anything but natural light. One is in front of a window so gets a lot of light and the other isn't but still gets dispersed natural light.

Starting with the sand beds they are very similar. They both have small rubble zones at the sides and have a 4" layer of sugar fine sand. Flow is laminar and by a gravity fed return. The prodominant life in these beds are mysids,, which swarm in their hundreds but are mostly small. Very few adults seem present. There is also good opulations of amphipods which build burrows in the sand as do the odd bristleworm.
The darker dsb which is much older also has a huge population of fan worms and i've witnessed planktonic spawning of an unidentified animal.

The algae refugiums have a mixture of algaes. They are lit on reverse cycles and the cheato/caulerpa and kelp sit above a shallow sand bed and rubble zones. Once again they are gravity fed. Amphipods are the biggest animal populations inhabiting the rubble zones especially. You do see them crawling all over the algae and i believe this is because they are not eating it but rather eating the bacterial/detrital films which cover them. There are plenty of stomatella snails, bristleworms, cucumbers, asterina's, mysids, copeods, fan worms, saghetti worms, spionid worms etc etc.

The final type of refugium is the mangrove/mud setup. This has prodominantly adult mysids. It is again gravity fed and the biggest congregation of life is in and between the roots of the mangroves. Again there is a rubble zone where you find a lot of amphipods and also good populations of copepods, worms, stars etc.

So from what i have seen the perfect refugia will have several zones. Some of these may not be easy to mix unless you have a large tank but i would have a dsb as this creates natural plankton from my experience. You would also have the shallow sand habitat at the surface for amphipods etc. I would also include an area where there is tight mixed algae growth but also one of more open algae growth. Mangroves don't work for everyone but caulerpa prolifera would be a suitable substitue imo. I do also advocate a natural photoperiod. I've never had too much problem with caulerpa if you choose the right species. Prolifera is perhaps the best and i'd avoid racemosa and taxifolia.
Rubble zones are also good as they provide a safe an inviting place to breed. I personally think that sand creats a larger diversity of life than the mud at least from personal experience and i'm not sold on the "benefits" of the mud anyway.
I always use gravity fed systems rather than pumps. I know this won't work with sumped refugia but it does mean a lot more of the animals survive the trip to the tank. Flow is variable as you get life in different areas. I plan to setup a cryptic zone soon with low flow and i've seen a few full of life. I believe too strong a flow doesn't let the food settle so isn't ideal for something like a deep sand bed. You also need to consider where equipment is placed as the usual placement of the skimmer and filter socks before the refugia will severely limit the amount of food which would be very detrimental to the populations within it. Ideally the skimmer would be completely seperate. Again something not normally easy to do.

I do feel one of the most important aspects which is often overlooked is feeding. Without the food source you will always be limiting your populations. Naturl food populations will be established in a mature system but it is always worth adding more food to boost populations from time to time. I also think it beneficial to add more life every now and then as some species will naturally prodominate or die off.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I believe that a large variation of habitats will offer the most diversity. I've been a advocate of natural filtration so have mostly this type on my tank. I split this into several smaller tanks to see what was going on. This includes two different dsb's, several algae refugiums and a mud mangrove setup.
As these are all on the same system i will describe briefly what i find in each. Please note the dsb's aren't lit by anything but natural light. One is in front of a window so gets a lot of light and the other isn't but still gets dispersed natural light.

Starting with the sand beds they are very similar. They both have small rubble zones at the sides and have a 4" layer of sugar fine sand. Flow is laminar and by a gravity fed return. The prodominant life in these beds are mysids,, which swarm in their hundreds but are mostly small. Very few adults seem present. There is also good opulations of amphipods which build burrows in the sand as do the odd bristleworm.
The darker dsb which is much older also has a huge population of fan worms and i've witnessed planktonic spawning of an unidentified animal.

The algae refugiums have a mixture of algaes. They are lit on reverse cycles and the cheato/caulerpa and kelp sit above a shallow sand bed and rubble zones. Once again they are gravity fed. Amphipods are the biggest animal populations inhabiting the rubble zones especially. You do see them crawling all over the algae and i believe this is because they are not eating it but rather eating the bacterial/detrital films which cover them. There are plenty of stomatella snails, bristleworms, cucumbers, asterina's, mysids, copeods, fan worms, saghetti worms, spionid worms etc etc.

The final type of refugium is the mangrove/mud setup. This has prodominantly adult mysids. It is again gravity fed and the biggest congregation of life is in and between the roots of the mangroves. Again there is a rubble zone where you find a lot of amphipods and also good populations of copepods, worms, stars etc.

So from what i have seen the perfect refugia will have several zones. Some of these may not be easy to mix unless you have a large tank but i would have a dsb as this creates natural plankton from my experience. You would also have the shallow sand habitat at the surface for amphipods etc. I would also include an area where there is tight mixed algae growth but also one of more open algae growth. Mangroves don't work for everyone but caulerpa prolifera would be a suitable substitue imo. I do also advocate a natural photoperiod. I've never had too much problem with caulerpa if you choose the right species. Prolifera is perhaps the best and i'd avoid racemosa and taxifolia.
Rubble zones are also good as they provide a safe an inviting place to breed. I personally think that sand creats a larger diversity of life than the mud at least from personal experience and i'm not sold on the "benefits" of the mud anyway.
I always use gravity fed systems rather than pumps. I know this won't work with sumped refugia but it does mean a lot more of the animals survive the trip to the tank. Flow is variable as you get life in different areas. I plan to setup a cryptic zone soon with low flow and i've seen a few full of life. I believe too strong a flow doesn't let the food settle so isn't ideal for something like a deep sand bed. You also need to consider where equipment is placed as the usual placement of the skimmer and filter socks before the refugia will severely limit the amount of food which would be very detrimental to the populations within it. Ideally the skimmer would be completely seperate. Again something not normally easy to do.

I do feel one of the most important aspects which is often overlooked is feeding. Without the food source you will always be limiting your populations. Naturl food populations will be established in a mature system but it is always worth adding more food to boost populations from time to time. I also think it beneficial to add more life every now and then as some species will naturally prodominate or die off.

Thanks for sharing your experiences running multiple fuges in a single system. Most of us don't have the ability to see the variations as you have observed.

 

[reefervinny]

Just chiming in here with my 2 cents. At this point in my reef tank I have some good pod growth in my fuge. Currently I have a descent size CB shrimp down in my refugium and I am still getting good pod growth due to my "copepod condo". The condo houses some chaeto and some LR and keeps my CB from feasting all day. I still have tons of pods free swimming in my fuge even with the CB so close because I think they still nest pretty well in the big ball of Chaeto & ball of Caulerpa i have in the main part of the fuge. The copepod condo serves two benefits IMO. It gives the pods a safe spot if you have any predators in your refugium and also makes it easy to trasfer pods to my display tank. I simply take out the pod condo and hang it in my display tank for a few days to a week and then drop back in the fuge for "pod restocking". Just a option I would throw out there.

 

[Moort82]

The condo is a great idea. I've used cups filled with rubble which i feed and rotate from tank to refugium in the past.

 

[jscarlata]

great idea with that piod condo, im going to try somethign like that...when i got a mandarin i added many bags of pods from reefs2go, but havent added any since the summer. i saw my mandarin last night and he was fat and happy...but i plan on getting some suplpements as soon as i can arrange a delivery on a day i can work at home...

 

[SeedlessOne]

I also just started using a pod condo. I made mine from gutter guard zipped tied together. I basically made a tube and dropped the rubble inside and then zipped off. I hung it by some fishing line in my sump.

 

[mess7777]

I don't know about return pumps killing pods, but skimmers definitely will. Your skimmer should be before your fuge and return if you want at least some of the pods leaving your fuge to make it.

I believe that you more diversity is better for our systems...and my fuge has live rock, chaeto, and an ATS. I get all kinds of life growing in there. Amphipods are very easy to catch and throw into the top tank....copepods I haven't figured out yet, maybe I will try one of these pod condos!

 

[reefervinny]

Pod Condo costed only $2.99 at the lfs. Can't beat that price so give it a shot.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Pod Condo costed only $2.99 at the lfs. Can't beat that price so give it a shot.

Reefervinny, I get zero hits on pod condo. Would you mind providing a link for your pod condo or some keywords to search for? A manufacturer name perhaps? Thanks!

 

[reefervinny]

Reefervinny, I get zero hits on pod condo. Would you mind providing a link for your pod condo or some keywords to search for? A manufacturer name perhaps? Thanks!

Definitely won't get any hits from the search term "pod condo". I saw on another forum that someone called it a "copepod condo" but used a different system. I think this one is very good as long as you don't get one with any metals used for hinges or what not.

Something similar to mine.

http://www.critter-cages.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=1251