poly toxin oops

RobTop

RobTop

New member
So do you think it is possible for a person to build a tolerance to poly toxins?

I have been effected once again, and it is milder then the last time, which was milder than the time before that. (forget about the fact I keep doing this and focus on the question)

So each time this happenes to me the effects are less and less. If this was a case were it happened once and the next time it was less I would write it up to a lesser amount of toxins. Heck even if it was a couple few times. This has happened near a dozen times (focus on the point not the amount of times my dumb a%& has done this please) And each time the effects last a shorter duration, and are milder.

So who wants to be part of a trail were we posion you and record the effects, then a few weeks laster do it again? It would be for the greater good. Come on be a ginue pig with me, lets find out together.
 
how does this happen exactly? I thought you had to eat the zoa or maybe take a sqiurt to the eye? Maybe you are touching the zoas and then putting uncleaned fingers in your mouth? I have been fragging zoas lately and unfortunately I am less than careful.
 
From not wareing cloves like i should.
Cut on hand+poly toxin on hand+numb fingers and a funny taste in your mouth
 
I have noticed the same thing. Being a cat groomer, I get a lot of scratches on my hands. I don't wear gloves when fragging & have gotten a couple of bad-looking wou,ds that got paly juice in them. They don't seem as severe as tbey used to be.

I also have built up a pretty good immunity to cat bites!
 
Re: poly toxin oops

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12701830#post12701830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobTop
So who wants to be part of a trail were we posion you and record the effects, then a few weeks laster do it again? It would be for the greater good. Come on be a ginue pig with me, lets find out together.
Click to expand...

Rob, it sounds like you are already our local test dummy.:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12702294#post12702294 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
I have noticed the same thing. Being a cat groomer, I get a lot of scratches on my hands. I don't wear gloves when fragging & have gotten a couple of bad-looking wou,ds that got paly juice in them. They don't seem as severe as tbey used to be.

I also have built up a pretty good immunity to cat bites!
Click to expand...

I can't believe you would groom a cat!! I wouldn't dare bring my cat to be bathed! Now that's dangerous!
 
I would think so over a long time, but im not a doctor. I just remember a snake handler out west that was like 60+. And had been bit somthing over 100 times and became mostly unbothered by the venom. But zoos are some of the most toxic things in the ocean right?
 
Re: Re: poly toxin oops

Re: Re: poly toxin oops

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12702813#post12702813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jjjimmy
Rob, it sounds like you are already our local test dummy.:D
Click to expand...

:lol: Hey Rob, Once you are completely immune, :o you can do seminars and go on speaking tours! :D

Boyd
 
Rob,

I am quite certain that you are not not building up a tolerance in a pure biological sense. You may be developing immune memory from the repeated exposures, but that is questionable.

Palytoxin is a relatively small molecule and does not illicit an immune response on its own. If upon entering the body the Palytoxin is linked up to native proteins it may be large enough for the immune system to recognize it and consequently lead to generation of specific memory and antibodies. The only way to know for sure would be to do an antibody titer and test whether you have circulating anti-Palytoxin Antibodies. Next time I am in Rockford...I will bring some needles and blood collection vials ;-)

Nonetheless, it is important to stress that at any point if you were to receive a potent dose (each colony will produce varying amount of toxin), you will suffer severe severe side effects.

Here is a case report published about 4 months ago from a German hospital.

A case of palytoxin poisoning due to contact with zoanthid corals through a skin injury.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The patient in this report began experiencing symptoms 2 hours after exposure and collapsed after 20 hours. At the hospital, they discovered three separate cuts (~ 5 mm) on his fingers. So it does not take much for this molecule to get in and cause havoc.


A Reef Scene...acquisition of memory (aka "immunity") to snake venom is absolutely possible with repeated exposure, as the venoms are protein molecules (larger and more complex in structure) and thus more easily attacked by our immune systems.
 
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Thanks V, I was hoping for a point of view as yours, medical. So I guess this is memory and possible varing amounts of toxin.

The 1st time this happened I experinced some wild things. I was in a ton of pain prior to the exposure.( I have some joint issues and it was a BAD day) So I was in a lot of pain and did not want to go down stairs to this fishroom, but had to get a frag for someone. At anyrate I drag myself down there and at this point I normally would put on protective gear. I was in a hurry and didn't think it would be an issue. As I cut the frag one of the poylps spit at me and a small drop hit me on the forehead.
With in 30 minutes I had the funny taste, Then my hands and feet went numb and my heart was racing like I just took a hand full of white crosses. What was interesting to me was that a little more than an hour later I was in no pain what so ever. I was chasing this pain all day with strong meds and could not get in under control. Then 1 small drop of poly toxin and I was not in pain at all. The effects lasted about 6+ hours.
When this happen I wondered about the pain management potintail of PolyToxin. After presenting this thought to Benji C who has a bit f a clue on these things, the over thought was more that I went into annafalactic shock (sp i know) and that because of this my pain symptoms were less.

Now all I get is numb fingers and a funny taste in my mouth.
There has been plenty of bad pain days though were I have thought more than once about licking a zoa since the meds don't always keep things going.
 
Rob-
Unless you want to inject papverine and/or isosorbide nitrate into your heart, try drinking some caffeine next time...I read somewhere it can actually help reverse symptoms if you get a small dose.
 
Not looking to inject any thing more than I already have to, let alone into my heart. I do not recall for sure, but I was probably drinking some Dew at the time already.
 
Rob,

You will continue to experience numbness upon every exposure...and I would suspect that will not ever resolve. The toxin binds to a channel that is used by every tissue in the body (except the Atrium of the Heart) to send messages. So if you can think of a function for a tissue...and then think what happens if I take away that tissues ability to send messages or execute its actions...than you can predict the affect of the toxin.

Loss of sensation (or "abnormal" sensations) in your lips, fingers, etc. is the toxin blocking the activity in sensory nerves. Difficulty with speech and swallowing are the toxin blocking the function of the muscles in your throat. Dizziness and disorientation would result from the toxin blocking the activity of neurons in the brain. Etc, etc, etc.

Note, that strictly speaking your experience and symptoms from Palytoxin exposure are not Anaphylaxis. Anaphylactic reactions are the result of your immune system "over-reacting" to an molecule (think of people with Peanut allergies).

Regarding the potential for use in pain management. The analgesia that you experienced was real and you are correct in that it will block the conduction of pain. Unfortunately, Palytoxin, in its pure form, is not a good therapeutic for pain management because it has low specificity (ie. will not just affect pain signals...but will affect all signals) and very high potency (ie. very small amounts have huge systemic effects).

Bottom line, limit exposure whenever possible if you can...even though you may be immune ;-) And should you develop a bad reaction (nausea, disorientation, loss of consciousness) get medical assistance.

fijiblue not sure that Caffeine will "reverse" symptoms, however, since it is a diuretic it may shorten the duration of symptoms...since you will clear the toxin from circulation faster.
 
We also found that palytoxin had no direct effect on the contractile apparatus itself, but at extremely low doses lowered ATP and cAMP levels in intact cells in a manner that could be reversed by caffeine to restore motility (Morton, et. al., unpublished).
 
fijiblue do you have a link for the source of that quote?

I assume that this comes from in vitro studies of toxin action...particularly as the authors are discussing the role of caffeine in the context of "cell motility" (bacterial?, leukocytes?).

I would be curious to see how caffeine, which does not have any direct action on Na/K ATPase's would antagonize or reverse Payltoxin action is an infected human.

Thanks.
 
If you search "caffeine effecting palytoxin", there are quite a few different articles that come up...the one I quoted from was the only one that I could understand...the rest are way over my head:D
 
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