Possible New Cure for Ick?
- Thread starter cratylus
- Start date
wasp
In Memoriam
Hmmm... Well that's interesting. The drawback I see is that the fish do not find the ginger very palatable, so it has to be mixed with food, whereas with garlic, the fish actually like it. Perhaps the ginger and garlic could be mixed, in a proportion that the fish find palatable, and also be able to hit the parasites two ways.
BTW, for those wanting more info on garlic, check this http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html
BTW, for those wanting more info on garlic, check this http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html
melev
Well-known member
cratylus said:
Cratylus, as you know I've followed this thread since day One as i found it very intriguing. I'm really glad that you've returned to post your thoughts and some follw up results. Some things that we are curious about is how much do you use exactly in how much food, and how often do you dose? Is this powerdered ginger, raw ginger ground up fresh? How small are the particles?
I'd really like to know how the LFS owner doses, and in one mixture.
And most importantly, what other effects have you observed in your tank - something we worry about. Have any of your livestock died mysterious, or have you found anything you can't keep alive no matter what? Perhaps there are organisms (shrimp, crabs, LPS, etc) that simply can't tolerate ginger in the water, or are slowly poisoned over time. This is important to know.
Until we know more, it would be nice to have a few guidelines that have worked for you and your LFS owner. At least this way we can be better informed, even if we choose not to use ginger in our tanks currently.
Just a few thoughts now that I'm home and not running out the door. Of several of the people trying to keep people from jumping on the ginger is a cure bandwagon, some are indeed Marine Biologists, some have experience in the tropical fish industry, and all are long time hobbyiest with much experience. No one as been calling themselves an expert, just pointing out know and established facts vs experimental ideas that need more work done. No one as been saying that ginger can't work, just that much more experimental work needs to be done to verify it before it can be recomended as an experimental treatment. Just as an example, some have claimed garlic always works...however, while it as apeared to work for some, there are just as many cases were people have had it fail. Not quite something I will call reliable. My own experiments with Garlic suggest that it might have some use in treating light cases of ick, it will not effectively cure heavy cases of ick. When hearing of an LFS having 12% mortality due to ick and than using a new method that reduces that, I have to wonder just what were they doing before, as I find any significant mortality to ick to be inexcusable when it is so easily treated.
With Ginger, what I'm really getting at, is that it is ok to suggest experimentation is needed. It's even ok to try experiments. But just remember it is still experimental. That also means it is a risk, not a known reliable cure. Just keep that in mind when deciding how to choose a treatment for ick. Do you want to cure the fish for sure? Or do you want to perform an experiment?
With Ginger, what I'm really getting at, is that it is ok to suggest experimentation is needed. It's even ok to try experiments. But just remember it is still experimental. That also means it is a risk, not a known reliable cure. Just keep that in mind when deciding how to choose a treatment for ick. Do you want to cure the fish for sure? Or do you want to perform an experiment?
wasp
In Memoriam
Actually I'm thinking about Joes Juice, this is something a hobbyist thought up & tried in his own tank, seemed to work so he talked a few other people into trying it, and now we have a remedy that has made aptaisia control really easy, who would have thought an in tank treatment that kills aptaisia and almost nothing else!
Anyhow the ginger thing we all agree is still "experimental", but I for one would like to move forward. How about everybody who tries it post your experiences here, both good, and importantly, bad. In this way over time some valid data could be assembled.
I am sure that one day, there will be a commercial in tank ich treatment available, be it ginger, or something else.
Anyhow the ginger thing we all agree is still "experimental", but I for one would like to move forward. How about everybody who tries it post your experiences here, both good, and importantly, bad. In this way over time some valid data could be assembled.
I am sure that one day, there will be a commercial in tank ich treatment available, be it ginger, or something else.
wmam
New member
Well as it seems.......... Some want to repeat themselves over and over and over and over........... about right and wrong, cure or no cure, treatment or experimental. This I guess is o.k. but I really wish we could stay on topic and try to help one another in working on this issue. I posed some questions and some ideas and would like to have some feed back from those who might know.
Thanks wasp. It is what I kinda was thinking also but I wonder about all the chemical reactions to everything in contact as well.
melev ....... I have always respected your thoughts and stance and you have been a good anchor through this entire thread. I to would like to know about the conditions of everything in the tank as well as algae growth (if any) and all live stock. But also having the exact recipe as it was mixed for the mash would help in the task of coming up with all the chemicals at work in this situation.
Thanks wasp. It is what I kinda was thinking also but I wonder about all the chemical reactions to everything in contact as well.
melev ....... I have always respected your thoughts and stance and you have been a good anchor through this entire thread. I to would like to know about the conditions of everything in the tank as well as algae growth (if any) and all live stock. But also having the exact recipe as it was mixed for the mash would help in the task of coming up with all the chemicals at work in this situation.
jaypainter24
New member
have any of you guys tried the ginger and it has failed you? just curious on how many people have tried with no success?
Jason
Jason
Bomber said:who?
I'd like to meet them.
:wavehand:
IIRC, ATJ while not currently employed as a biologist, does have his degree in biology. I'm sure ATJ will correct me if I'm wrong on this
BTW, Jerel, I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on ginger. Either in this thread or via PM. It does appear as if it is something worth looking into, but I haven't seen anything yet that would make me go recomending it to people that are looking for cure as yet.
ATJ
Premium Member
billsreef said:IIRC, ATJ while not currently employed as a biologist, does have his degree in biology. I'm sure ATJ will correct me if I'm wrong on this
I won't correct you as you are not wrong.
My degree is in marine biology and while I'm not currently employed as a marine biologist, I do volunteer work with a number of local marine biologists, mostly coral or fish biologists.Note that I do not believe you need to be a marine biologist to participate in these sorts of discussions, to experiment with new ideas or to share observations. The training, experience and discipline does help in analysing observations and constructing or evaluating experimental method.
ATJ
Premium Member
Here are a couple of interesting studies:
Hirazawa N., Oshima S., Hara T., Mitsuboshi T. and Hata K. 2001. Antiparasitic effect of medium-chain fatty acids against the ciliate <i>Cryptocaryon irritans</i> infestation in the red sea bream <i>Pagrus major</i>. <i>Aquaculture</i>.<b>198</b>:219-228.
Hirazawa N., Oshima S. and Hata K. 2001. In vitro assessment of the antiparasitic effect of caprylic acid against several fish parasites. <i>Aquaculture</i>.<b>200</b>:251-258.
They are interesting at two levels:
1) they demonstrate how one would go about studying the effectiveness of ginger on treating <i>C. irritans</i> infections. The second paper demonstrates the effectiveness of the tested compound directly on parasites and the first one studies the effectiveness of feeding the compound to infected fish.
2) If I am not mistaken, ginger (root) contains caprylic acid and it is possible that caprylic acid is the active ingredient. Both studies show that caprylic acid has some effects against <i>C. irritans</i> either in solution, or provided in the diet of infected fish.
For the moment, let's make the assumption that caprylic acid <b>IS</b> the active ingredient and the reason that ginger appears to be effective. The first study above showed that while fish fed with 75 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day had significantly fewer parasites, the treatment did not eliminate all the parasites and the fish still died 22 days after the challenge started (in the 24°C run). Two days after the initial challenge, the number of parasites on the gills of the fish over the three treatments (0 , 37.5, 75 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day) was not significantly different, although there were fewer parasites in the 75 mg treatment than 37.5 mg and fewer in 37.5 mg than 0 mg. At between 10 and 21 days there was a significant increase in the number of parasites on the gills and the eyes. In the case of the gills, the mean parasite count per fish went from 2.4 to 1,872, 1.0 to 1,386.8 and 0 to 656.4 in the control, 37.5 and 75 mg runs respectively. This indicates that the parasites went through at least one cycle, possibly two, despite the treatment.
It is likely that in an aquarium context, the fish are challenged by fewer parasites than in the study and so the treatment may reduce the parasites sufficiently to prevent death of the fish and also give the fish more time to acquire an immunity.
Seventy-five mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day was more effective than 37.5 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day. If one was using ginger to provide the caprylic acid, how could you be sure than you have provided sufficient quantities? How much ginger do you need to feed the fish? It is possible that different ginger preparations include differing amounts of caprylic acid so even standardising on the amount of ginger may deliver different quantities of caprylic acid.
Even if caprylic acid isn't the (only) active ingredient of ginger, the same questions above still apply. How much ginger do you need to feed to ensure sufficient quantities of the active ingredient(s)? What about varying proportions of the active ingredient(s) between ginger preparations? While ginger may well work, it may be possible and easier to provide just the active ingredient(s) that the ginger itself.
Hirazawa N., Oshima S., Hara T., Mitsuboshi T. and Hata K. 2001. Antiparasitic effect of medium-chain fatty acids against the ciliate <i>Cryptocaryon irritans</i> infestation in the red sea bream <i>Pagrus major</i>. <i>Aquaculture</i>.<b>198</b>:219-228.
Hirazawa N., Oshima S. and Hata K. 2001. In vitro assessment of the antiparasitic effect of caprylic acid against several fish parasites. <i>Aquaculture</i>.<b>200</b>:251-258.
They are interesting at two levels:
1) they demonstrate how one would go about studying the effectiveness of ginger on treating <i>C. irritans</i> infections. The second paper demonstrates the effectiveness of the tested compound directly on parasites and the first one studies the effectiveness of feeding the compound to infected fish.
2) If I am not mistaken, ginger (root) contains caprylic acid and it is possible that caprylic acid is the active ingredient. Both studies show that caprylic acid has some effects against <i>C. irritans</i> either in solution, or provided in the diet of infected fish.
For the moment, let's make the assumption that caprylic acid <b>IS</b> the active ingredient and the reason that ginger appears to be effective. The first study above showed that while fish fed with 75 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day had significantly fewer parasites, the treatment did not eliminate all the parasites and the fish still died 22 days after the challenge started (in the 24°C run). Two days after the initial challenge, the number of parasites on the gills of the fish over the three treatments (0 , 37.5, 75 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day) was not significantly different, although there were fewer parasites in the 75 mg treatment than 37.5 mg and fewer in 37.5 mg than 0 mg. At between 10 and 21 days there was a significant increase in the number of parasites on the gills and the eyes. In the case of the gills, the mean parasite count per fish went from 2.4 to 1,872, 1.0 to 1,386.8 and 0 to 656.4 in the control, 37.5 and 75 mg runs respectively. This indicates that the parasites went through at least one cycle, possibly two, despite the treatment.
It is likely that in an aquarium context, the fish are challenged by fewer parasites than in the study and so the treatment may reduce the parasites sufficiently to prevent death of the fish and also give the fish more time to acquire an immunity.
Seventy-five mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day was more effective than 37.5 mg caprylic acid/kg B.W./day. If one was using ginger to provide the caprylic acid, how could you be sure than you have provided sufficient quantities? How much ginger do you need to feed the fish? It is possible that different ginger preparations include differing amounts of caprylic acid so even standardising on the amount of ginger may deliver different quantities of caprylic acid.
Even if caprylic acid isn't the (only) active ingredient of ginger, the same questions above still apply. How much ginger do you need to feed to ensure sufficient quantities of the active ingredient(s)? What about varying proportions of the active ingredient(s) between ginger preparations? While ginger may well work, it may be possible and easier to provide just the active ingredient(s) that the ginger itself.
wmam
New member
ATJ,
Now thats what I'm talking about................ Thanks for the info. Now if we could just figure out what all the ingredients, and portions there of, of the home made mash that Cratylus made and the various chemical break downs of all and what effect, if any, they each have on each other. This might open another door to peek inside.
Now thats what I'm talking about................ Thanks for the info. Now if we could just figure out what all the ingredients, and portions there of, of the home made mash that Cratylus made and the various chemical break downs of all and what effect, if any, they each have on each other. This might open another door to peek inside.
