Possible sex reversal?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9251886#post9251886 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHardman
I am not quite ready to put everything on the table yet, but here is one example I have personally observed.

Mature, productive (read actively spawning) male loses female. Is left to his own for >6 months in a effort to insure a sex change has occurred.

The now larger "male" that by all common wisdom should be a female is paired with a 12 month old juvenile from a community tank of ~100 fish. This juvi was picked because it was a tank bully, nicely formed and colored.

No noticeable pairing behavior observed (aggressive/submissive), however the fish acted as paired.

Two weeks after pair, much to my shock there is a small nest in their pot. Once the pair settles down and sees they are not getting fed and go back to their "normal" behavior I expect to see the new small "male" from the community tank tend the nest.

Nope, the "female" is tending the nest. Oh well no big thing, I have had very good nest tending females in the past.

Nest hatches into the tank several days later. I plan to let several go until they get their act together and are producing large nests.

Next night I catch them "rubbing belly" on the pot. WHAT!!! Wait a minute, the "little male" from the community tank has "his" I mean HER ovipositor down laying eggs and the "female" is coming back and doing the classic male fertilization run.

Yep, 7 days later there newly hatched larva in the tank. A productive nest.

The only solid conclusion that can be logically gained from this, is that the would be "female", despite being left isolated in a tank alone for >6 months, that slightly increased in size, did not turn female.

Very interesting. That does tie into why in some pairs, the female isn't necessarily the largest. I have seen that before, but this suggests something more complicated, such as a complete halt of 'transformation' or lack thereof (but why?). I wonder if this sort of thing would happen with any sort of regularity in the wild or if it is just a result of a captive captive life (like many other irregularities that seem to pop up in other things). Keep us updated.
 
Jhardman, just curious as to what kind of clown was this? The pair I referenced is a pair of gsm.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9252253#post9252253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by catdoc
Jhardman, just curious as to what kind of clown was this? The pair I referenced is a pair of gsm.

The male is a WC A. ocellaris and the female is a CB F0 of one of many WC A. ocellaris pairs that were producing a year before.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9252152#post9252152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprion
Very interesting. That does tie into why in some pairs, the female isn't necessarily the largest. I have seen that before, but this suggests something more complicated, such as a complete halt of 'transformation' or lack thereof (but why?). I wonder if this sort of thing would happen with any sort of regularity in the wild or if it is just a result of a captive captive life (like many other irregularities that seem to pop up in other things). Keep us updated.

Something of interest here, that doesn't really allow for any real conclusions to be made, is the female of this pair.

The female when paired it was ~12 months old. Smaller than the would be female, frankly about the size one would expect of a adult male in a spawning pair. While the would be female nearly doubled her size, just shy of what one would expect to see in a spawning female.

Yet this fish at 12 months give or take a couple of weeks, was producing eggs in a VERY short period of time. The fish was a tank bully, i.e. was trying to dominate the other ~100 fish in the tank, which may well mean, that even at that young age, she was already a female, or well on her way to becoming female. The when introduced into a pairing with only what can be described as a functioning male, either quickly finished the gender change or simply started producing eggs.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9251675#post9251675 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by colby
Cool...

Okay here is a more concise time line that hopefully will not be as ambiguous as my last attempt lol...

1. Female from original pair died...male alone for about 1 month

2. Introduced lttle Ocellaris and "INSTA-PAIR"!!!!

3. Little Ocellaris died, swim bladder somethin or other I believe.

4. Original "male" alone for about three months.

5. Introduced "pre-established pair" and little juvie.

At this point the clowns all formed a little clan with the new "female" breaking it off with her mate a little to hang with the original "female..err...male?"

Anway that is how it stands. I am begging to wonder if sex reversal is in fact possible as it has been documented in other protygeneous hermaphrodites.

Thanks guys

I think the old saying of "the proof is in the pudding" applies here. Until you have spawning events, you will not know for sure the sex of the fish. It may well be that you have (2) females, (1) male and (1) unsexed fish, or (1) female, (2) males and (1) unsexed.

This could very well be a case, as I described earlier, of a lone male, not turning female despite repeated cues to.
 
I agree that the most likely scenario is that the pair you received weren't really a pair yet - that they were either both still juveniles, or a male/juvenile "pair."

I think part of the problem is that we read the various experts to say that after a month the change from male to female has happened, whereas what I think they have actually said is the in as little as a month the change from male to female can take place - doesn't mean it has to.

I've paired two breeding male GSMs with smaller juveniles after the males were alone for six months. In both cases the pair "took" with minimal fighting, but it took 12-18 months for the pairs to start spawning. This tells me that either the new male, or the old male (new female) weren't ready to "be their new sex" in a short period of time. So, there's a lot we don't know about the mechanics of these relatinships yet.

Kevin
 
Cool

Thanks again for all the advice...

Yeah, I think that the "pair" I got may not have actually been a pair as they never really settled down nor did they select a home. From what I understand they hung out in the upper corner of the tank by the filter tube, even after two years in the tank together. And seeing as how after two years there was no spawning behavior I think it is very plausible that they may not have been a male/female pair. But like JHardman said, only time will tell. I will try and get a pic tonight to post just for curiosities sake.

Thanks again
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9252959#post9252959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemone
I agree that the most likely scenario is that the pair you received weren't really a pair yet - that they were either both still juveniles, or a male/juvenile "pair."

I think part of the problem is that we read the various experts to say that after a month the change from male to female has happened, whereas what I think they have actually said is the in as little as a month the change from male to female can take place - doesn't mean it has to.

I've paired two breeding male GSMs with smaller juveniles after the males were alone for six months. In both cases the pair "took" with minimal fighting, but it took 12-18 months for the pairs to start spawning. This tells me that either the new male, or the old male (new female) weren't ready to "be their new sex" in a short period of time. So, there's a lot we don't know about the mechanics of these relatinships yet.

Kevin

I agree. You are exactly right on 'in as little as'. From official studies, time can range upwards of 150 or so odd days. There really was never an established ceiling on that value, anyway.
 
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