Possibly mislead by LFS? Trying to make it right

bean2986

New member
Hello everyone,
I'm new, so hello! Let me preface this by giving a little bit of a disclaimer. I have had freshwater tanks for the past 15 years with no issues. I understand fish keeping chemistry and the importance of "doing it right". I will also say I have been doing business at the same fish store for the entire time, and nothing they have ever told me ended up with disaster/deaths/illness. They have been my primary resource for equipment, food and fish. I want to do this right, and not the fast/easy way. Unfortunately, I've grown suspicious of their advice and conducted considerable research these last few days. I'm worried they rushed me into failure, and I'm looking for advice/ help on how to proceed to stabilize the tank properly if that is indeed the issue here.

Two weeks ago, I set up an all new 65 FOWLR that I will most likely make a simple reef tank. Following their advice I set up the tank as follows:

Actnic/White T5
Reef Octopus HB-100 Skimmer
Aquatop 400CF Cannister (UV off)
3x Powerhead (550gph for behind rock, 2x 1150g for front
300 watt heater
2 Digital Thermos and a manual floater
83lbs Base rock
8lbs fully cured live rock
60lbs live sand
Seachem Stability
Seachem Prime

Original parameters(Liquid testing):
Ammonia: 0 (Got up to 0.25 and never spiked again)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Calcium: 380
pH: 7.9
Phos: 0
SG: 1.025 (Instant Ocean Reef using refractometer)
Temp: 79

Per their timeline outlined for me, I introduced 3 Super Tongan Nassarius Snails, 5 Scarlet Hermits, 5 Blue Leg Hermits, and 1 Green Emerald after 7 days. They are all thriving and continue to do so with the exception of a Nassarius who died the first night. Two days ago I introduced 3 Green Chromies. They seemed to acclimate fine (Floated- 1/2 cup tank water every 15 minutes for 1.5 hours, netted into tank- they use copper) and were happy and schooling and eating. Overnight, one died and one went into hiding and the third was active. Yesterday, both hiding. Last night, both on bottom breathing heavily (1 hiding, 1 open). I see no signs of disease and they won't eat. All parameters are still the same as above, cleaned canister, did 15% water change, doubled carbon and pointed both 1150s at the surface. It's been 12 hours with no improvement. My major concern is that the tank never cycled, and they got hit with an ammonia spike that has since dissipated. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I didn't get into the saltwater hobby so I could torture my fish. :(

Thank you
 
Hard to say. Your fish may have had some underlying issues that were not outwardly apparent (green chromis do carry uronema). Two weeks is a bit fast, even though you used some fully cured rock. Did you seed the tank with some kind of cycle starter (like a cocktails shrimp)? Also live sand can be a bit of an unknown commodity. At this point I'd just ride it out. If the fish should die, leave them in there as a way to provide some nutrients for the tank to process. Give it at least a couple of weeks before adding anything else.
 
Currently Ammonia is still zero. Highest it has ever been was 0.25. I did not seed it since I was not instructed to- Just the rock, sand and the Seachem Stability were my instructions.


If they die and I leave them in- Will the spike kill my inverts and the coralline on the live rock?
 
Hey there, use of Seachem Prime suggests you are not using an RODI unit, or are you? Agree it is likely the cycle for the fish - just making sure you are not using tap water. The HB-1000 skimmer probably won't be adequate if you turn this into a reef, or have a heavy fish bioload in just a FOWLR. I would increase the size of your skimmer, and remove the canister filter altogether. Another good tactic is to get two smaller wattage heaters, rather than one large one, to provide a little safety margin should one fail - it gives you a little more time. Maybe the LFS will take some equipment back if you have a good relationship with them.
 
I am using RO/DI water from my own unit (0 PPM tested today). He knew I had one when he sold me the Prime.. Oh well
 
Maybe leave one in, not two. Sounds a little macabre to me : ) You probably won't get a spike in ammonia if you are a couple weeks into the cycle already and the fish is small, but monitor ammonia anyway if you leave a dead fish in the tank...
 
The ammonia spike may not have been from the actual tank, but while in the bag as you were acclimating them. Many will argue a 1.5 hr acclimation while in the original water is a long time and there will be ammonia build up in the bag. Did you add anything to the bag water to reduce ammonia? I know you bought locally but depending on the size of the bag/water volume and if all three fish were in the same bag (which I assume they would have been) there is a chance it could have been the bag water that spiked. What was the salinity difference? I know a lot of stores run their system at extremely low salinity levels for various reasons so that could also play a role. An option for you could be to use a 5 gallon bucket that has fresh saltwater in it matched to the LFS salinity with a small airpump and heater so you can float the bag in the bucket for 15 minutes and immediately transfer the fish to the same salinity water in the much larger volume of water to raise the salinity to your tank. Getting them out of the bagged water and providing yourself a much larger cushion for increasing the salinity could benefit you. I have used the match temp and salinity many times with no issues or stress to the fish; granted mine is a QT not going immediately into the tank so the bucket would be a midway point for you rather than a long term holding place.
 
Thank you for the advice everyone- Going to try and get the pH/Alk up today and just wait it out.

Another thing is a lot of thriving tanks run low pH (below 8.0) so I would not necessarily focus in on changing the pH number. It is one that changes through the day even so not measuring it at the exact same time every day will cause you to be chasing something that will never settle. If you want to focus in on something it would be the Alk which you didn't list. I assume you have a number though since you said you are going to focus in on that. That being said, when I ran a FOWLR I never had to dose anything for Alk to keep it where it needed to be and only used the salt to maintain the levels for me. What salt are you using?
 
Prime does somewhat screw up your nitrate test readings, converting rather than removing nitrate. I ran into that issue after nursing my tank through a power out and consequent dieoff.
 
I am using RO/DI water from my own unit (0 PPM tested today). He knew I had one when he sold me the Prime.. Oh well

Prime has two purposes. It removes chlorine from tap water if people don't use a rodi, and it buffers ammonia so that fish are not harmed by it while the bacteria feed on it and expand their population to accommodate the added source (fish). He probs sold it to you for the second purpose.

FWIW I don't think you're off to that bad of a start. There's not a right way to do this, and I don't see anything majorly wrong with the way he set you up. It's like anything else you would buy, a good store can be a valuable resource but you still need to do your own research.

Welcome and good luck!
 
The 3 fish were in one bag with 3-4 cups of water, and the pet store is 35 minutes away (one of the closest). Did not check store tank salinity, but store claimed 1.024. I did not add anything to the bag for ammonia. If the damage happened while in the bag, is it normal for a delayed onset of symptoms? They were quite active and fine for 4-5 hours before I went to bed.


According to the dipstick I have (Store was out of liquid alk tests) I'm running around 120ppm (7?). I also checked my Mg and its 900. Calcium still 380 after some Kalk. Im using Instant Ocean Reef Crystals and the numbers I'm getting do not match the Mg/Ca based on the Salinity I have acorrding to the bag. SG is accurate (been checked on my personal refractometer, the LFS refractometer and a medical refractometer I have at work(I trust that one the most)). Should be 420ish Ca and 1300ish Mg...
 
Wait, did you use Prime or Stability? They are different products for different uses. Some fish just don't acclimate well. Its a lot of stress they get put through, being caught, transported to LFS, caught again, transported to your house.
 
Also- not the salt. Just made some fresh...has Mg of 1300ish at 1.025. Alk is still around 7 though. When I made the initial volume, the LFS gave me an extra 10 lbs of "what he uses". Guessing it had no Ca or Mg and therefore I'm deficient?

Should I do water changes? or just supplement? Or leave it?
 
Everything is a balancing act. You probably did not see any ammonia because you did not have enough rotting stuff to produce more than your initial bacteria could handle. Now that you have fish, you are seeing a cycle. Stop adding the Prime and Stability. Use more live rock and add some kind of algae plants. You can try using bacteria in a bottle but time will fix this. Is there any way for you to set up a sump or a fuge? If you do not have one now you will want one soon.
 
I also use Instant Ocean products; I personally would just use basic water changes to get to and keep your levels.

One thing I have read often is you need to shake the bags before using the salt to make sure settling doesn't happen.

That all being said, it is not uncommon to have fish lost so don't get discouraged.
 
I would say it was likely the ammonia spike. Same exact thing happened to me, though well after tank was established. Dosed some amquel after my badge confirmed ammonia was high. Moved the affected fish to my qt and was able to save them
 
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