Pretentiousness

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Just what I want to avoid Bill :D

The regulations part made me laugh though, I needed that :) I've been present at CA F&G meetings where some reg's where talked out and put in place. They didn't care about data, good or bad and that was crystal clear!

I also agree this trade will get shut down in terms of importing MO livestock. It's not if, but rather when IMO. It's not just a call against keeping MO, the environment, etc but also invasive species which is a big ticket item right now. If it where not for the AZA we would be shut down all ready back in 2000 as they worked against a bill banning all livestock from air travel. That was aimed by PETA types tired of seeing dogs/cats die needlessly on jets. It was so poorly written it would have effectively banned all animals from air travel, ALL ANIMALS.
 
You guys are doing a good job of illustrating my points which obviously hit home. One guy wants to see data when no specific subject has been discussed another poster seems to think that regs on collection come from a central body in the hobby. One guy wants me banned from RC, Several seem to think the sky is falling and reefs are doomed and there is nothing we can do. Thi is all not much different than they guy who wants to correct my spelling. My challenge is for one of you to turn the corner with a more coherent challenge or turn of subject. I dangled several possible turns for anyone that follows conservation around the world. There are lots of movements and a couple that actually achieve anything. Funny no one ask questions on those lines instead of trying to some fatal flaw in my text.

- Mark
 
Woh wait, one guys thinks the regs come from one central body in the hobby? If your talking about me your talking out the wrong hole buddy. Ca F&G only regulates CA, just like BFAR only regulates PI. US F&W S + NOAA regulate the trade nationally. Cyanide has been illegal use for MO capture in ALL MO collection countries for over a decade. Thus far it's getting worse, not better, so just how has the regulations been working?

Were do you come off with such pretentiousness to think you are so informed on this issue and none of us are? A chemist? Try working the trade like several in this thread have for a long time. Sorry, you're just a troll. Last post in this thread :)
 
I must agree with Gresh.

Do-not-feed-the-troll.jpg
 
So all of the journal articles that have shown cyanide use on the decline for decades with local exceptions caused by poverty as education and inforcement slowly take effect are wrong. Interesting.

And of course I must mention that this is a side topic. Does not address the orginal concept that pretentiousness is the tool that drives misquided movements, like PETA. You are using the same play book including the attempt to bully. A good stategy if this is all the game you have.

- Mark
 
Mark,

I'm coming in late on this thread, and it looks like it has already degraded - I should probably sit on my hands, but I won't of course.

You should listen to Bill and Gresham - you may not always agree with them, but you'll learn something.

You mentioned earlier, (to paraphrase) that you simply could not fathom how such vast a resource as live reef fish could ever be harvested unsustainablly. That's what they said about cod in the North Atlantic (grin). There is proof that some species are being harvested faster than recruitment - just follow pricing trends for carpet anemones over the past thirty years and you'll see!

Can you give citations for "all the journal articles that have shown cyanide use on the decline..."? This is not true, as we discussed in another thread, and I would like to see who is writing that it is.

Aquarium ethics is one of my passions, I wrote a section on it in my Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques book. I also just finished an article on aquarium conservation, but it hasn't been published yet. However, here is a section from it that discusses captive breeding:

Captive breeding
While many freshwater fishes and aquatic plants have been grown for the aquarium industry for many years, captive propagation of most marine aquarium specimens is much more difficult. Great strides are being made in this facet of aquarium husbandry and each year, more captive raised marine specimens are available in the pet trade. It is generally assumed that since these captive raised animals did not originate in the wild, that they have minimal impact on natural systems.
Captive breeding can serve to reduce the “wild take” of a species. A case in point might be the Mexican blind cave tetra. Rare in the wild, and found only in localized habitats, this fish is commonly sold in most pet stores for a few dollars because they are produced by the thousands in Florida fish farms. In order for this method to work, the cost of the wild counterpart to a species must be higher than the cost of the captive raised animal, and the quality of the latter must be higher.
Some captive breeding programs are designed with the goal of reintroduction of the animals to their native habitat. This is only a viable conservation method if the habitat can be repaired to the point that whatever deficiency that caused the species’ demise in the first place has been corrected. For example, some species of Haplochromine cichlids have become extinct in Lake Victoria due to the introduction of the predatory Nile perch. Some of these species are being maintained in captivity, but they cannot yet be returned to their natural habitat because the perch population is still too high in the lake. Another concern with population reintroductions is the possibility of non-native pathogens being returned to the wild along with the cultured species.


Jay Hemdal

P.S. â€"œ one more bit of rambling â€"œ wearing my Dr. Phil hat (as I’ve been told I do)
I ran into a similar problem you did with this thread - I posted something titled, "Calling out the Tang Police". I used that title in order to get people to read my post - on a very important topic. The problem is that it worked too well and three of the tang police came long and the thread completely fell apart because they could not see past the title. You used the word “pretentious”, and I think that got people thinking you were a troll. Then again â€"œ perhaps you were just trolling?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14058053#post14058053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MM WI
One guy wants me banned from RC,

Wrong again. If I wanted you banned, I would have done it myself. I was simply pointing out one of the problems inherent in your approach to this issue.

One guy wants to see data when no specific subject has been discussed

Um, yes it was. The subject was the claim that marine harvests are well below the sustainable minimum.

My challenge is for one of you to turn the corner with a more coherent challenge or turn of subject. I dangled several possible turns for anyone that follows conservation around the world. There are lots of movements and a couple that actually achieve anything. Funny no one ask questions on those lines instead of trying to some fatal flaw in my text.

I think that several flaws in your text have been pointed out to you, but I guess you just haven't been able to see that text from that saddle way up there. It seems to me, that you have a broad topic you want to discuss (incl conservation efforts, reef protection, environmentalism, PETA, etc), and you wanted to use a small, specific example as the launching point of that discussion. The problem is, you haven't shown yourself to be very well informed about that specific topic, and, as a result, your primary goal of discussing the bigger issue has gotten derailed. You also seem to want to get other people to make the move to those topics, rather than doing it yourself. This approach seems rather pointless, since you could have just started the thread to begin with by discussing those bigger issues. I think if you had started the thread with just your first paragraph, and left off your misguided examples, you would have had a much more productive conversation.

You are using the same play book including the attempt to bully

Where are you being bullied? Several of your statements have been directly challenged. Each time, you write it off as people being pretentious and try to steer the thread back in the direction you want it to go.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14055037#post14055037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MM WI
The inevitable selectivity breading for freaky fish would bother me also. The carp being selectively bread into all of its varieties. I sure hope that our marine tanks will not be full of fish that don't resemble what is found in nature.

I must have missed this comment before. Spend a little more time in the Anemone and Clownfishes forum. ;)

The market is what is deciding those fish. That said, there are still plenty of people who are intentionally breeding natural looking clownfishes of those breeds.
 
Hi Jay,

Welcome,

All of this is completely tangential. The only point of contention that was valid was the suggestion that aquaculture could be done more efficiently than legal sustainable harvest. Of course no one with any standing at all can argue the opposite. Unfortunately a few people have done this as silly as it is. If you read my posts carefully you will see that everything else is a fabrication. That cyanide is damaging dah, The earliest data I remember on testing of fish for the hobby showed mid thirty to mid forty percent positive for at least a trace of cyanide. Recent years less than 10 percent positive. This is not controversial and does not require a reference. 10% is Still too high, but if the fools that are trying to bash had read carefully the relevant topic is that what remains is driven by poverty. Several current political leaders in the US are on the verge of driving world poverty through the roof in the name false conservation. Their tool will be an appeal to the character flaws I have eluded to at in here and a few have demonstrated. This is the topic. I really doubt your friends have much to offer but posturing. If this conversation actually wanders into conservation and conservation not just of the reefs because they are all enter related you will see this. Your friends may have some powers here on the site that I cant compete with but I pretty sure I will be able to handle them quite easily otherwise.

- Mark
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14063983#post14063983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MM WI
The only point of contention that was valid was the suggestion that aquaculture could be done more efficiently than legal sustainable harvest.

If that was your only point, why didn't you simply start and end with that? Instead you brought up several different issues, and a lot of wandering talk. The other points that have been addressed by some of us, were indeed originally brought up by you. Pretty silly to bring something up and then just drop/ignore it and consider the rest of us pretentious for addressing your flawed info/logic.

BTW, currently aquaculture is only more efficient (or at least cost effective) for a very small handful of marine species when compared to legal harvest of wild caught. This includes both ornamental and food species. Unfortunately due to the nature of fishery regulations, unsustainable harvest has to be included in the calculation of cost viability of aquaculture vs. wild harvest.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14063983#post14063983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MM WI
Hi Jay,

Welcome,

All of this is completely tangential. The only point of contention that was valid was the suggestion that aquaculture could be done more efficiently than legal sustainable harvest. Of course no one with any standing at all can argue the opposite. Unfortunately a few people have done this as silly as it is. If you read my posts carefully you will see that everything else is a fabrication. That cyanide is damaging dah, The earliest data I remember on testing of fish for the hobby showed mid thirty to mid forty percent positive for at least a trace of cyanide. Recent years less than 10 percent positive. This is not controversial and does not require a reference. 10% is Still too high, but if the fools that are trying to bash had read carefully the relevant topic is that what remains is driven by poverty. Several current political leaders in the US are on the verge of driving world poverty through the roof in the name false conservation. Their tool will be an appeal to the character flaws I have eluded to at in here and a few have demonstrated. This is the topic. I really doubt your friends have much to offer but posturing. If this conversation actually wanders into conservation and conservation not just of the reefs because they are all enter related you will see this. Your friends may have some powers here on the site that I cant compete with but I pretty sure I will be able to handle them quite easily otherwise.

- Mark

I think in a way you are using a bit of circular logic in anyone with any standing could not possibly disagree. It seems that you may be basically discounting anyone that disagrees. I have read some list serve arguments among industry scientists and leaders arguing wild caught versus aquacultured so I don't think we should call this a clear cut established truth that can't be argued. I will say that on this list serve both sides of the argument had vested intersts in their side if I recall it correctly.

Of course this also depends on how you are defining efficiency. As far as economic efficiency then currently you are spot on in nearly every species of fish. That does not mean it is what is neccasarily what is best for a society or the enviroment. The market will eventually reflect those pressures but only as they become translated into economic costs. For example a completely free market will outcompete a regulated economy but possibly at the cost of ecology, human rights, etc. If you have ever seen a sociologist argue with an economist this disagreement becomes painfully clear.



I have seen reports that show lower rates of cyanide fishing than was used in the past. I don't think that it is so well established and accepted that it requires no reference. The other issue with this is simple data collection. I admittedly have not read these studies and looked at the raw data but any data gathered on illegal activities can be suspect. Some of these government numbers may be collected by corrupt beaurecrats. I can't say that these numbers are low but I can say they are suspect.
 
Bill,

You are right it was not even close to my only point. What I am objecting to is how many ideas were attributed to me that were not said or implied. And you were also right that i was well aware I was heading into a controversial subject. It is not possible to thoroughly discuss conservation without wandering into politics. Most notably starting by questioning peoples motives. This is were I wanted to go. I want people to see the parallels between what is often done on this board and what the people who want to shut us all down do. These things are important to me because they interfere with conservation. You think what we are talking about here is controversial, try putting forth a management plan on a polarizing animal like the timber wolf or the humpback whale. Pretentiousness and posturing are a bigger part of the equation than science. I think we need to point out the foolishness and start calling a spade a spade. I have no problem pointing out how selfish peoples motives are that use the veil of conservation to promote purely selfish goals at the expensive of the resource. Are you questioning that is what is happening in the US and Europe?

- Mark
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14064980#post14064980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MM WI

Pretentiousness and posturing are a bigger part of the equation than science. I think we need to point out the foolishness and start calling a spade a spade. I have no problem pointing out how selfish peoples motives are that use the veil of conservation to promote purely selfish goals at the expensive of the resource. Are you questioning that is what is happening in the US and Europe?

- Mark

I am questioning that. :) I may be misreading this but it seems like you are implying that while many things can be questioned this is established beyond any doubt. I have seen 0 evidence even pointing that direction in this thread or elsewhere.
 
Mark,

Snipping out all your trolling rhetoric, I came to this:

"Recent years less than 10 percent positive. This is not controversial and does not require a reference.."

- OMG man, let me tell you that SURE does require a reference! No ifs ands or buts, that number is WAY to low for the two main areas still dealing with cyanide issues - Manila and Jakarta. The values there are still above 50% overall based on my understanding, and the mortality rate along for fish from those areas still runs in excess of 50% at 40 days post-importation - no different than my previous study in 1985 (Hemdal 2006).

And please don't misconstrue - Bill and Gresham are not my "friends" per-se, I don't even know them other than reading their posts...but like I said, try it some time!


Jay
 
Alright Jay, A local example does not contradict my earlier statement. Hows the economy in those areas compared with parts of the world where inforcement is more effective. Similiar to Bill reading a statement about "the only legitamitate point of contention" as if the statement said the only point. Do you really think if I went to half dozen local stores bought fish and tested them for trace cyanide I would find much more than 10% positive. This is getting a bit tiring you guys are trying to score that point that has eluded you. Why is this even where you are taking the conversation. There are much larger questions that have been put in play. You disappoint me, I thought I saw positive stuff in your earlier post.

What is going to happen in the areas you mention and others if economies decline further.

Are you really suggesting that I am the one misreading posts?

- Mark
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065063#post14065063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
I am questioning that. :) I may be misreading this but it seems like you are implying that while many things can be questioned this is established beyond any doubt. I have seen 0 evidence even pointing that direction in this thread or elsewhere.

Hi Jeng,

Do you see any of this in the national dialog or in the US media? Do you any of this when we make judgemental statements about people paying ten dollars for wild caught clown when they could have bought a captive raised for just a little more. How about when we set one type of equipment above the other.

- Mark
 
Let’s clarify a bit so we don't keep taking about things that have not been said. I never suggested that we should not be raising fish. If it is a profitable venture it is nothing but good. I was only making a statement about disparaging fish that are legal caught on a sustainable resource. I am really sure I made it clear that I was talking about fish only and legal harvest. I am also sure I made it clear I was using of this as an example of larger question. Please confirm that someone gets this. Cyanide is not a legal capture method and no one is advocating it. Someone please let me know that know what the larger point is.

- Mark
 
Mark,

You wrote:

"Do you really think if I went to half dozen local stores bought fish and tested them for trace cyanide I would find much more than 10% positive:

No - you wouldn't find much because NaCN is a biologically active, transient chemical - you cannot test for what is no longer there.

Would you find residual increased mortality rates in those fish? Yes - and again I refer you to my own studies.

I'll ask you again - what are these recent studies you are citing? I've not seen them and I would like to.

Jay
 
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