Preventing Old Tank Syndrome

[5pacey]

... Remember, I am not the God of DSBs and this is "my" opinion. I hope yours lasts forever. :uhoh3:

Paul, appreciate your modesty, but w/40 yrs of successful reef-keeping, while you may not rule the DSB nation, you do qualify for the Olympus seat of reef keeping. You certainly get my offering ...

I have not set up a DSB yet at this point but was seriously thinking about it, hearing mostly good things w/regards to nitrate removal capabilities. In fact I was going to put 6" of sand in my 50 gal tank (the largest part of the basement filtration setup I am building for the 90gal DT). That said, maybe I should go w/LR, well... DR really, hopefully will populate itself to LR.

I was undecided about detritus... my initial instinct was to maximize elimination capabilities in the system by setting up a dedicated settling/detritus separation chamber (1st chamber in the filtration setup, where water drains to from DT) with, optionally running one or two socks on the drain.

But then read that Randy Holmes-Farley's system is essentially built to ignore detritus... meaning he doesn't even vacuum. Just has his 5 or 6 brute containers mostly filled w/LR and chaeto (I made a diagram somewhere based on his description), w/one or two for non biological purposes. And his intention is for detritus to just "disappear" into the void and be eaten by bacteria and other fauna/flora in brute refugiums and DT.

So, my attitude towards detritus changed, and I thought to myself that maybe it's not so bad... maybe it will get eaten. Even caught myself two fighting conch's last month in Sarasota, with intention to employ them in/on the DSB in the 50G tank.

But now, you come along w/a completely formulated and rational explanation of why it's this is all bad, and 40 years of experimentation to prove it. I dunno... it's kinda hard to ignore. Especially that it makes total sense to me

Spacey

 

[Paul B]

I have not set up a DSB yet at this point but was seriously thinking about it, hearing mostly good things

Did you hear of any old DSBs? 5 years is not old.

But now, you come along w/a completely formulated and rational explanation of why it's this is all bad,

I didn't say they were bad, I said I don't think it will last 10 years. For the first 8 years or so, it should be fine. Most people don't keep a tank that long.
I run a reverse UG filter and I wouldn't want anyone to talk you into one of those. I like having the oldest tank on here :wavehand:

 

[wildblue64]

Paul,

Does your rock rest on the sand, glass or egg crates? If egg crate, do you remove the egg crate when you are doing a deep clean of the sand?

 

[Paul B]

Mr rock rests on DIY rock pillars that keep most of it off the "gravel" I don't use sand.
You can see my gravel here

You can also see a video here.

 

[wildblue64]

I had planned to set my rock on egg crate and then cover with 1-2 inches of sand. Will your methods work with this set up? I'm in the process of setting up my first tank and want to start out right.

 

[Paul B]

I don't think my particular method will work that way. My RUGF depends on a system of gravel, not sand. Sand is just small grained gravel and it will clog in a short time completely eliminating any benefit from a RUGF.
Sand is a different system and must be maintained and set up differently

 

[rick12]

Paul interesting that your rock is suspended and not sitting in the gravel.
What's your flow like? Would you consider your system to be a Gyre system?
R.

 

[Paul B]

Some parts of my rock are sitting on the rock but most of it is suspended.
For flow there is a Korila and a 25 year old powerhead.

Would you consider your system to be a Gyre system?

I don't know, Whats that? Whatever it is, I designed my system so it is a "Paul" system, being that there was no other systems around when I built it.

 

[rick12]

Some parts of my rock are sitting on the rock but most of it is suspended.
For flow there is a Korila and a 25 year old powerhead.


I don't know, Whats that? Whatever it is, I designed my system so it is a "Paul" system, being that there was no other systems around when I built it.

Got it from this article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature

They most likely stole it from the Paul system and re named it!

 

[Paul B]

Thanks for that link, I didn't read the entire thing yet but some of what I did read, I disagree with a little.

In the natural environment, the reef surface and the corals which live on it experience mostly random, chaotic flow in the form of oscillatory surge

In the aprox 300 hours I have spent underwater I have noticed in "most" but not all places lamalar flow. In the Caymans for instance the water always moves in one direction and very fast. Much of the South Pacific where moorish Idols come from experience the same thing. The only place where the sea experiences random flow is in very shallow water and that is caused by wind/waves.
Any place where you find seafans, which is all over the Caribbean you will find lamalar flow because seafans always grow perpendicular to the flow. They do not live in randomly flowing water. They grow this way to maximixe the flow of water past each polyp.
I will try to read the rest of it if I get time. :crazy1:

 

[yardboy]

Paul, my experiences mostly are the same as yours with the exceptions of where there are large open water reef habitats with waves crashing onto them, but then I've never seen many radically different species growing there either. Wall dives always seem to experience laminar flow.

 

[ellisz]

I am going through some growing pains in my system currently. Most of my rock was purchased in 2004 but I have have added a few pieces along the way. Started with a 75 gal with a 3-4" sand bed. I moved that system twice with mostly softies and currently the sand in that system is in my 33 gal refugium(5-6" DSB)

My current system is a 180 gal tank, 100(50 gal water) gal stock tank, 33 gal refugium and 40 gal frag tank - all one system. I set this up with a mix of 3-4" of new sand and some sand from a local reefer in May of 2007. So some of the rock and sand is from 2004 and some from 2007. The last 2 years I have seen my SPS die out and some lps as well.

I blame this on lack of maintenance and lack of water changes but I am looking for a way to get it back to its glory. Based on what I reading here, I have issues with my rock and sand. What would be the easiest way to fix it? My original plan was to remove the livestock and trash the sand but keep the rock. Is this enough or do I need to start over completely?

I am in IN so I have not added anything to my tank from the real ocean in quite sometime. My rock is half fiji and half Florida rock.

Looking for some advice to start over but would like keep my $$$ spent low if possible. I cringe when I look back at what I spent back then

 

[Paul B]

I just got home froma few days away, I will get back to this

 

[5pacey]

... Looking for some advice to start over but would like keep my $$$ spent low if possible. I cringe when I look back at what I spent back then

I too have some old rock from a local reefer who got out after many years, and have been studying the issue of whether to use or not to use the rock in the new setup I am putting together.

Based on conventional wisdom, a major factor in the OTS is Phosphate accumulation in the substrate (sand) and rock over years of overfeeding, not cleaning etc. Again, this is the conventional wisdom out there... NOT what this thread is about per se, but is definitely related. According to said conventional wisdom, basically the 1st step would be to determine if your sand and rock leach phosphate. And if so, then you have a choice... either chuck it or try to "cleanse" the rock/sand with Lanthanum Chloride assuming you can set up a separate closed system or a cleaning setup w/no life in it. I say with no life in it because there is some evidence that Lanthanum Chloride dosing, even in small amounts negatively affects some Tangs and generally is not well understood as far as any potential long term side effects. Some folks dose it into their full operational system in small amounts and intercept the precipitate at the point of entry and claim that it's ok, but others have cited definite and observable negative effect on some of their livestock, which revert immediately the moment they stop dosing.

I have checked and my old rock does indeed leach Phosphate, a lot. So, while I am still maintaining it, keeping it wet in SW, I am not sure yet if I will spend the $20 or so including shipping for Lanthanum Chloride and try to cleans it. I may, just to see if it works, and if it does then I'll have more rock

Spacey

 

[Paul B]

I am really not the person to ask anything about conventional wisdom because I am not a conventional guy and none of my methods are conventional. I hate DSBs so I would say to dump that, but if you like sand, I would dump out all the sand, wash it in saltwater and replace it back in the tank maybe an inch deep, no deeper. throw the rest of it under your tires when you get stuck in the snow.
The rock I would not worry about it, it doesn't go bad, (contrary to popular wisdom)
I would however either swish it around very well in a bucket of salt water or powerwash it with a canister filter making sure to get in all the pores.
This methos will cost you nothing.
I can't see from here what is wrong with your tank, but it may be the DSB.
(Did I mention I hate those?)

 

[RGibson]

Paul B what is the best way to eliminate majano anemones from my 180 gal 13 year reef tank i way to many.

 

[unkel j]

Paul B, what type of flow/powerheads do you use?

 

[Paul B]

I don't remember, they are over 20 years old but I do use one Korilia.

 

[boozeman]

Reading this thread motivated me to give my tank a thorough cleaning. I put a filter sock in the sump and two tunzes at opposing ends of the tank. I then took a third power head in my hand and used it to blow against the live rock... I was amazed at the amount of particulates getting blown off and whipped around the tank ! The water became so cloudy I could barely see the fish, but after a couple of hours the water became clear once again and I discarded the filter sock which by then was almost black with gunk.

Paul, would using a diatom filter work even better than a fine micron sock or would it be the same?

 

[unkel j]

Thanks for that link, I didn't read the entire thing yet but some of what I did read, I disagree with a little.


In the aprox 300 hours I have spent underwater I have noticed in "most" but not all places lamalar flow. In the Caymans for instance the water always moves in one direction and very fast. Much of the South Pacific where moorish Idols come from experience the same thing. The only place where the sea experiences random flow is in very shallow water and that is caused by wind/waves.
Any place where you find seafans, which is all over the Caribbean you will find lamalar flow because seafans always grow perpendicular to the flow. They do not live in randomly flowing water. They grow this way to maximixe the flow of water past each polyp.
I will try to read the rest of it if I get time. :crazy1:

It puzzles me why most reefers try to acheive random flow when most reefs actually have lamalar flow.