proof that design ( not 2x4's) are key to stand integrity.
- Thread starter Drae
- Start date
as far as overbuilt stands go most reefers probably err on that side. For what its worth id love to see some shots of underbuilt stands, accidents just waiting to happen, the real nightmare ones that people have seen, or the aftermath of collapsed stands (all properly redacted to protect the innocent:beachbum
. I cant help but think you hear of these nightmares waiting to happen but dont often see them (i suppose people are , not surprisingly - much more reluctant to advertise their failures).
if nothing else be good for a bit of a laugh (i suppose providing it wasnt yours).
hell we have all made mistakes in this hobby/obsession wether we care to admit it or not
. I cant help but think you hear of these nightmares waiting to happen but dont often see them (i suppose people are , not surprisingly - much more reluctant to advertise their failures).if nothing else be good for a bit of a laugh (i suppose providing it wasnt yours).
hell we have all made mistakes in this hobby/obsession wether we care to admit it or not
sleepydoc
Team RC
The 'Harm' in overbuilt stands is that they waste money, wood and space. The problem with dimensional lumber is that it often times can warp/twist, etc. Holding the weight is just part of the equation. A stand also needs to support the weight evenly.
Many people overbuild their stands because they lack the expertise to design a 'lesser' built stand that they know is safe and they would rather build their own than overpay for a custom/commercial stand.
Biodegraded: do you (or anyone) know what an acceptable amount of flex for the base of an aquarium is? The stand may only bow 0.2", but that may be more than enough to compromise the seals or glass on a tank...
Many people overbuild their stands because they lack the expertise to design a 'lesser' built stand that they know is safe and they would rather build their own than overpay for a custom/commercial stand.
Biodegraded: do you (or anyone) know what an acceptable amount of flex for the base of an aquarium is? The stand may only bow 0.2", but that may be more than enough to compromise the seals or glass on a tank...
GroktheCube
New member
Certainly overkill, but for those of us that don't build things for a living, a little overkill can make us feel much more confident!
Granted some people go way overboard, but I don't think framing by 2x4s is too nutso for those of us that doubt our ability, or the ability of our tools, to perform perfectly accurate and precise cuts.
Granted some people go way overboard, but I don't think framing by 2x4s is too nutso for those of us that doubt our ability, or the ability of our tools, to perform perfectly accurate and precise cuts.
Drae
RAIDER NATION!
You dont need plywood, or 2x4s, or nails, or screws.
This stand will hold 4x the weight that is on it, if not more!!!
Point being. Use the methods, materials,and or cost that you are capable and comfortable to produce a structure that will properly hold the Item it is intended to hold.
I have been here for a while and have seen very few, if any, detailed plywood stand builds. Your thread will be welcomed by many.
I'm always a fan of ORIGINAL for sure. nicely done.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
OP
Regarding your choice of glue... Just my two cents, "Gorilla" wood glue sucks. It is simply single component polyurethane and it is extremely over rated, messy and hard to work with. It relies on moisture to cure and is impossible to clean up (no solvents attack it). Titebond has a fully waterproof glue that is easier to work with, more suitable for finishing and easier to cleanup.
"shooting" the joints. The nails or whatever you are shooting are mostly there to hold the pieces in place until the glue dries. That said, a good choice of joint is one that gets its strength from the mechanical fit, not the glue or nails.
Have fun... and happy woodworking.
Regarding your choice of glue... Just my two cents, "Gorilla" wood glue sucks. It is simply single component polyurethane and it is extremely over rated, messy and hard to work with. It relies on moisture to cure and is impossible to clean up (no solvents attack it). Titebond has a fully waterproof glue that is easier to work with, more suitable for finishing and easier to cleanup.
"shooting" the joints. The nails or whatever you are shooting are mostly there to hold the pieces in place until the glue dries. That said, a good choice of joint is one that gets its strength from the mechanical fit, not the glue or nails.
Have fun... and happy woodworking.
Drae
RAIDER NATION!
yeah gorilla glue actually does suck. You have to use a wet cloth to prep the material and if you wet it to much or little it doesn't cure correctly. then it expands like crazy. I was just using an example. your joint comment was pretty much my point in the op.
GroktheCube
New member
Have you ever gotten Gorilla Glue on your hands? Never again 
mr.maroonsalty
New member
I think more people would enjoy having a true cabinet; it's a piece of furniture that compliments all the work that happens on top of it. Having a cabinet shop rip out a plywood cut list of 4 or 5 panels and a few strips should be about as easy as having glass cut, plus then the lists of woods and veneers to choose from becomes only as limited as your funds. In the end people could still have all the fun of screwing it together and trimming it out.
Here is my current project and it's trim schedule:
Here is my current project and it's trim schedule:
biodegraded
New member
In a home hobbyist scenario, I think the last point is the most relevant as it determines what size sump and skimmer can fit in the stand. In a business scenario the first two points are king. I'd also add weight as a factor. More weight equals more shipping cost amongst other things.
I wasn't very clear that the stand would not actually sag 0.2". That number accounts for only the wood beam bearing a load that can deform with it which is decidedly not our case. For the stand shown, there is also a shear web of 3/4" plywood across the span and there's the aquarium itself. I just dropped numbers into my Excel sheet for a plywood webbing and 8" high across the span is as stiff as the 4x4. Meaning the sag has already been halved.
But the real stiffeners are the aquarium front and back panes. Those are two feet tall made of glass that has a modulus of elasticity an order of magnitude greater than wood. The tank itself provides the greatest resistance to sagging as long as the adhesive doesn't fail. As for the adhesive, I just googled Momentive rtv and it has a tensile strength of 400 psi. Maybe I'll check that out sometime, but it won't be tonight.
It's obviously been worked out given the sheer number of tanks in the world.This is the irony I've seen in many DIY stands. These two-by-whatevers could result in a 40 ton stand if properly joined, but when reviewed show the whole thing is limited by the shear strength of a couple handfuls of nails or screws.
2x4s are a lot cheaper than plywood.
Kawi9_cf
Member
Most people build the stands out of 2x4's then skin them in plywood so it ends up costing more than just buying the plywood. Not to mention from my experience you have to buy more 2x4s then you actually need because many times you end up with bowed or crooked pieces.
jayinh
New member
I like to build the frame out of 2x4 and then skin using a poplar,maple or oak . I agree alot of stands i see are using too much lumber and sometimes in the wrong spots or arears not needed. I like to add alot of trim details and have as much access as possible so the 2x4 fram works best for me. i also make sure the back of the stand is glued and plywood skinned.
maypo59
New member
Either way works. I built one decades ago out of 2x's, then skinned with T&G bead board to match the kitchen it is in. Still there, still looks good, sister is still happy. A properly built plywood stand will hold the weight of a tank no problem. Lots of people don't have the skill or tools needed to work with large sheets. Go look at any factory stands at your LFS.. I have never seen one with a 2x substructure.. But I do see plenty made of MDF and such.. those scare me way more than ply.. because if they get wet... well we all know what happens then.. and we all know "wet" is going to happen. They are often reinforced in the corners with a second piece of MDF for strength, because they don't have long fibers in them to hold up the weight.
Now.. real story about "plywood and tank" (well almost a "tank") I have personally seen, and worked on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle that had its complete suspension system removed, and it was supported by only 4 plywood "boxes" about 2 foot square and cross braced in one direction. Those boxes weighed less than 40lbs each.
I have also worked on M60 series tanks that were in the same status, but sitting on 4 oak cubes, about 18" on a side. Now those blocks weighed about 175 pounds, but they were supporting around 50 TONS.
I am a carpenter and artist who works with wood.. so I have access to a great cabinet saw and lay up table.. my display stands I built are done with plywood and solid wood face frames. I build my own doors, but many people buy them built...
Current 70 in dining room, built to match the other furniture in there..
Underneath with lots of room.. (not a great pic.. but you can see how open it can be..)
And sometime.. 2x's ARE the right choice..
sump in basement..
I think the OP's point was that many stands are overbuilt for no reason.. he didn't maybe articulate it well though. I know I have seen stands on here built with 2x6's, then skinned in 3/4 ply.. I am sorry.. but I do get a chuckle out of those. The biggest stand I ever built is for a 380.. it's all plywood, been up about 8 years now, no problems.
The facts are that many feel comfortable with working with 2x's, and they do work. But 2x's are not as dimensionally stable as ply, by a long shot. All is good if it has an aquarium on it
Now.. real story about "plywood and tank" (well almost a "tank") I have personally seen, and worked on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle that had its complete suspension system removed, and it was supported by only 4 plywood "boxes" about 2 foot square and cross braced in one direction. Those boxes weighed less than 40lbs each.
I have also worked on M60 series tanks that were in the same status, but sitting on 4 oak cubes, about 18" on a side. Now those blocks weighed about 175 pounds, but they were supporting around 50 TONS.
I am a carpenter and artist who works with wood.. so I have access to a great cabinet saw and lay up table.. my display stands I built are done with plywood and solid wood face frames. I build my own doors, but many people buy them built...
Current 70 in dining room, built to match the other furniture in there..
Underneath with lots of room.. (not a great pic.. but you can see how open it can be..)
And sometime.. 2x's ARE the right choice..
sump in basement..
I think the OP's point was that many stands are overbuilt for no reason.. he didn't maybe articulate it well though. I know I have seen stands on here built with 2x6's, then skinned in 3/4 ply.. I am sorry.. but I do get a chuckle out of those. The biggest stand I ever built is for a 380.. it's all plywood, been up about 8 years now, no problems.
The facts are that many feel comfortable with working with 2x's, and they do work. But 2x's are not as dimensionally stable as ply, by a long shot. All is good if it has an aquarium on it
TropTrea
New member
Have you ever seen a stand that has collapsed? I have seen this on more than one ocassion.
1. if your making a stand for a large tank 4' or longer you have to consider the potential that all wood will warp to some extent especialy if there is a lot of moisture and a considerable amount of weight on it. For this reason I like to use lumber on end for the tank to sit on.
2. stability is a big issue. you do not want someone simply bumping into your stand and having it fall over. For this reasom I do not recomend a strict 2 X 4 stand without side bracing. A simple piece of 1/4 plywood will provide this. For an example look as some of the comercial made bookshelves. They are very flimsey without the piece of cardboard that is attached to there backs.
3. Cost reduction. I will agree using 3/4" plywood is very workable for building a stand. But locally 3'/4 oak plywood is getting close to the $100.00 per sheet range while a 2 X 4 is only $2.00. Simularly a sheet of 1/4" oak plywood is under $20.00.
A simple cost effective way is to build that stand out of 2" X4" creating your square frame for the tank to rest upon. Then adding either 2"X2 ' or 2"X4" legs. But then adding the 1/4" oak plywood to the outside for austetics as well as to add the needed stability.
In my fish room I had build 2 X 4 stands that between vertical suports spanned 9 feet. These stands handled a total of 360 gallons or over 1 1/2 tons. However I also used 1/4" plywood for stability on both the sides and the rear.
I have also built 8" long stands that suported 2 120 gallon tanks and 2 90 gallon tanks for a total of almost 2 tons with the exception that the horozontal runs were 2" X 6" rather than 2" X 4" lumber.
A note on metal stands I have also seen metals stands done with Angle iron which had weld rust out after roughly 10 years. I had also seen ones build comercialy by welders which under the weight of the tank started warping.
1. if your making a stand for a large tank 4' or longer you have to consider the potential that all wood will warp to some extent especialy if there is a lot of moisture and a considerable amount of weight on it. For this reason I like to use lumber on end for the tank to sit on.
2. stability is a big issue. you do not want someone simply bumping into your stand and having it fall over. For this reasom I do not recomend a strict 2 X 4 stand without side bracing. A simple piece of 1/4 plywood will provide this. For an example look as some of the comercial made bookshelves. They are very flimsey without the piece of cardboard that is attached to there backs.
3. Cost reduction. I will agree using 3/4" plywood is very workable for building a stand. But locally 3'/4 oak plywood is getting close to the $100.00 per sheet range while a 2 X 4 is only $2.00. Simularly a sheet of 1/4" oak plywood is under $20.00.
A simple cost effective way is to build that stand out of 2" X4" creating your square frame for the tank to rest upon. Then adding either 2"X2 ' or 2"X4" legs. But then adding the 1/4" oak plywood to the outside for austetics as well as to add the needed stability.
In my fish room I had build 2 X 4 stands that between vertical suports spanned 9 feet. These stands handled a total of 360 gallons or over 1 1/2 tons. However I also used 1/4" plywood for stability on both the sides and the rear.
I have also built 8" long stands that suported 2 120 gallon tanks and 2 90 gallon tanks for a total of almost 2 tons with the exception that the horozontal runs were 2" X 6" rather than 2" X 4" lumber.
A note on metal stands I have also seen metals stands done with Angle iron which had weld rust out after roughly 10 years. I had also seen ones build comercialy by welders which under the weight of the tank started warping.
Or just use red oak, get someone who does wood working as a hobby and have him build it and be done with it. I have two stands built like that and will never be worried about that sound at 3 am.
On the flip side, right now I am using my first stand I ever help build with my dad for my son's tank. It is yellow pine with no 2 x 4s for a 55 gallon that was built around 1986.
The top was cut out of the center so I could look up under the UG plates to see when it was time to vacuum the gravel.
I can carry the stand using one arm like a ladder and makes it easy to move.
Obviously both ways work and work well as long as the design is sound.
Anyone else ever participate in the bridge building competition for Olympics/Odyssey of the mind using 25 grams of balsa wood to hold 100+ pounds?
The difference between winning and coming in last depended on whether or not the structure twisted under the weight.
It got harder when they moved from free weights stacked on top to a 5 gallon bucket being suspended and you had to add free weights and then sand.
On the flip side, right now I am using my first stand I ever help build with my dad for my son's tank. It is yellow pine with no 2 x 4s for a 55 gallon that was built around 1986.
The top was cut out of the center so I could look up under the UG plates to see when it was time to vacuum the gravel.
I can carry the stand using one arm like a ladder and makes it easy to move.
Obviously both ways work and work well as long as the design is sound.
Anyone else ever participate in the bridge building competition for Olympics/Odyssey of the mind using 25 grams of balsa wood to hold 100+ pounds?
The difference between winning and coming in last depended on whether or not the structure twisted under the weight.
It got harder when they moved from free weights stacked on top to a 5 gallon bucket being suspended and you had to add free weights and then sand.
Drae
RAIDER NATION!
I did the bridge thing in woodshop in the 8th grade ( don't remember the project name. it was 20 yrs ago lol). That lessen stuck with me my whole life. It taught me that even though there's over a thousand different ways to skin a cat, some methods are better then others by far. I truly believe that whatever makes the aquarist feel better and more confident with their stands, that hold enough money on them to feed a small village, then there is no right or wrong way I guess. but there is better ways to do so then just slapping a bunch of 2 x 4' s together, especially since most people who just casually build things don't even own a square or level. I will do a plywood stand thread for those interested.
sleepydoc
Team RC
I wasn't very clear that the stand would not actually sag 0.2". That number accounts for only the wood beam bearing a load that can deform with it which is decidedly not our case. For the stand shown, there is also a shear web of 3/4" plywood across the span and there's the aquarium itself. I just dropped numbers into my Excel sheet for a plywood webbing and 8" high across the span is as stiff as the 4x4. Meaning the sag has already been halved.
But the real stiffeners are the aquarium front and back panes. Those are two feet tall made of glass that has a modulus of elasticity an order of magnitude greater than wood. The tank itself provides the greatest resistance to sagging as long as the adhesive doesn't fail. As for the adhesive, I just googled Momentive rtv and it has a tensile strength of 400 psi. Maybe I'll check that out sometime, but it won't be tonight.
Thanks for the clarification. I would argue that you can't count on the aquarium to provide much stiffness. The walls of the tank will certainly not deform as they are on edge. The problem comes with the flat bottom. That will flex far more than the sides and can either crack or cause failure of the silicone seals. I've never seen any data for how much flexion is acceptable. Like you said, there's got to be data out there, I just haven't seen it.
+1 I recently saw a thread with a tank resting on particle board supported by a 2x6 that was attached to the vertical supports with 6 screws.
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NanoReefWanabe
Active member
i did the bridge competition when i was in university. (architecture student at the time) we could only use white glue, popsicle sticks and dental floss...my teams bridge weighed in at 1.23kg and held an astounding 685 pounds...then civil engineers who built the wining bridge, had theirs weigh in at 540grams and held more then 2100 pounds....less than half the wood, yet three times as strong...
sound joints, precise cuts and an incredible understanding of tension and compression go a long way...sadly i still dont know how they built their bridge, as it was exploded into smithereens, and i will likely never have a grasp on the forces the way an engineer would, nor do i have the tools to properly build a sound plywood stand...so as a lay man i will still build with dimension lumber of some sort and skin it with ply...nothing wrong with it, and honestly, when it comes time to ever move a stand i am sure a couple guys can help...it is not like i move fish tanks weekly around here...
sound joints, precise cuts and an incredible understanding of tension and compression go a long way...sadly i still dont know how they built their bridge, as it was exploded into smithereens, and i will likely never have a grasp on the forces the way an engineer would, nor do i have the tools to properly build a sound plywood stand...so as a lay man i will still build with dimension lumber of some sort and skin it with ply...nothing wrong with it, and honestly, when it comes time to ever move a stand i am sure a couple guys can help...it is not like i move fish tanks weekly around here...
