PROP Meeting

[Sisterlimonpot]

Sisterlimonpot: I would love it if someone could set a backyard get together. I would go if my work schedule permits as I like trading corals, especially if prices are less.

I still love PROP auctions. Even at the inflated prices, I am still able to buy corals I want for significantly less than almost everywhere else. And on the few occasions where I can sell, I often get less than what I paid originally. And almost always, I used proceeds from the sales to buy others corals at the auction. Kinda like trading with but with cash is the middle.

My first choice of coral acquisition would have been from PROP auctions. However, I haven't been able to go to a PROP auction for a really long time, nearly a year. So I ended up buying corals the LFS (fairly expensive), from some local reefers (fairly reasonable), and online (really expensive but sometimes no choice for what I want).

I saw your sale thread.... In my book, those are reasonable prices. I may hit you up for some of those SPS in the future....

 

[Frick]

I think so but more low tech, no building rental, no liability insurance, no booth fees etc... Just a gathering of a bunch of people willing to bring a cooler full of frags or even set up a small frag tank and sell/trade corals at a reasonable price.

AZ FRAG & PROP hasn't rented a building in a while. As for having a meeting at someone's house, we are more than happy to do that for a meeting. Anyone want to volunteer? I am thinking we do one at my shop this year as well and have a BBQ and show people the ins and outs of acrylic aquarium manufacturing.

That's a good point, I look at it from a "bigger picture" point of view. Having these auctions inflate the cost of coral and prohibit the free trade within the community. The auctions I went to, there were corals that I would literally give away, selling for $50+. I understand the competitive nature of auctions and how certain primal characteristics are elevated when you're caught in a bidding war... but a frag that should've been traded or sold for $10 commands a bid of $70?? I ask, Is that the intended purpose?

I disagree. As someone that has been to on both sides of the PROP auctions I can tell you a majority of the stuff sold goes for what I would consider below retail or even wholesale cost. There's always fad corals that sell for a lot. Right now it is Mushrooms, while some of my favorites like SPS and Zoas go way below what they should be selling for.

Also Free Trade is allowed at the meetings and a few people still do it. List what you want to trade and add a price and you'll get people interested.

As for the intended purpose, selling & trading corals is a market and some things will loose their value very quickly in a local setting. It has nothing to do with if it is an auction or not. Ask the people that been around here awhile about Blue Xenia, Scrambled Egg Zoas, or Tiff's Green Birdsnest. These are just a few that were nice "rare" pieces that dropped fast in value because of their availability.

I would go out on a limb and venture to guess that the price you spent on the corals in your tank could've been purchased at a fraction of the price if there was free trade in the community. Let's say you spent $50 on a euphyllia that should be less than $10, as that coral grows out you're going to want to sell frags of that euphyllia for a similar price. So now we have a community that is selling their corals for more than they're worth. When new people enter the hobby and are ready for corals, they think that said euphyllia is worth $50+. In my mind that's crippling to a community.

Supply and demand. But yes as a new reefer, it can take some time to know what the supply and demand of certain corals can be. I would argue that the auctions show this up front. If you see two things in an auction you really want, one of them there is just one, but the other three sellers brought a piece. Which one are you less likely to back down on?

I know that goes against a lot of peoples social construct. People may see the club as a sort of loophole to make some money back. Believe me, I know that this hobby is expensive, however, try not to lose sight that it is a hobby and the only way to bring the price down is to stop supporting the inflation of the trade. We need to go back to basics and allow the community to thrive and when that happens you will have a healthy club and a group of people willing to bend over backwards for other hobbyist.

You're going to get the same issues if not worse with free trade. In an auction you can at least see how others are bidding on something in real time.

Actions have the advantage of selling a lot of corals at once, but at lower average prices. You could probably get more by trading your frags one by one but it will be slower.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

AZ FRAG & PROP hasn't rented a building in a while. As for having a meeting at someone's house, we are more than happy to do that for a meeting. Anyone want to volunteer? I am thinking we do one at my shop this year as well and have a BBQ and show people the ins and outs of acrylic aquarium manufacturing.

For me the best thing about being a part of reefing community is to be able to show off your system. I always found great value in having a bunch of people over and offering suggestions to what can be streamlined or a way to correct a problem. And on the flip side, I like going to see other peoples setups to get ideas or offer up suggestions. It's not like there's not of over abundance of people with great tanks in the community, I see lots of them on the forums, 1000, 350, 250 gallon tanks and would love to see first hand how they operate. To know what there maintenance practices are, what some of the challenges are and how they overcame them etc. It's not just me, I know of a few more people over here in the west valley that feel the same. Although to boil it down, it's not what I like or what you like, it's being able to cater to many different needs, be a well rounded club. Some people like the presentations, some people like the social aspect, and of course there's no shortage of people that like the auctions.

I disagree. As someone that has been to on both sides of the PROP auctions I can tell you a majority of the stuff sold goes for what I would consider below retail or even wholesale cost. There's always fad corals that sell for a lot. Right now it is Mushrooms, while some of my favorites like SPS and Zoas go way below what they should be selling for.

Also Free Trade is allowed at the meetings and a few people still do it. List what you want to trade and add a price and you'll get people interested.

As for the intended purpose, selling & trading corals is a market and some things will loose their value very quickly in a local setting. It has nothing to do with if it is an auction or not. Ask the people that been around here awhile about Blue Xenia, Scrambled Egg Zoas, or Tiff's Green Birdsnest. These are just a few that were nice "rare" pieces that dropped fast in value because of their availability.

I get your point, although my conclusion is the complete opposite. As I understand(and correct me if i'm wrong) that premise behind the auction is to use the proceeds to purchase new high end corals, grow them out in designated tanks and make it available to the area at a reduced price, I'm all for that if it means we take an over inflated $300 coral and grow it out in enough tanks that it becomes a $5 piece. Of curse that's an over exaggeration, and I may be talking out of line here, has that been happening? what new high end corals have been added to the prop growers arsenal? A lot of what I see that the prop farmers offer up are what were high end years ago. Perhaps you can debate that it works. But let's see some new inventory.

I'm just like you, I'm an SPS and Zoas guy too. I think that my tank is finally at the point that I can confidently maintain a stable environment for SPS corals. And I would be happy to carve out a slice of my tank for prop corals, but I don't want a bunch of red dragon, cali tort, hawkins etc... I want the community to be introduced and made available to the best the industry has to offer. If we were to do that, then perhaps the the auction would work. But I won't put a $300 prop coral in my tank only to grow it and sell frags for $250, it has to be substantially lower.

The club has a unique ability to steer the community in the right direction. But what is the right direction? Is it to maximize club profits? or is it to bring reefers together and make the community stronger? And of course it comes down to who sits on the board and in the positions of power.

Supply and demand. But yes as a new reefer, it can take some time to know what the supply and demand of certain corals can be. I would argue that the auctions show this up front. If you see two things in an auction you really want, one of them there is just one, but the other three sellers brought a piece. Which one are you less likely to back down on?

From a guy that's on the outside looking in, the auction is already over inflated based on the scenario I provided. Maybe I'm wrong with the intended purpose of this club. We have to ask, "what do the members want?" and provided it. Maybe then you won't get a bunch of excuses as to why the attendance to the meetings were so low. If members are given a choice to go to the meeting or opt to schedule a root canal in its place, then that should be a moment of reflection. Most people out my way say that spending 2-3 hours of round trip driving isn't worth the trip. Make it worth their time.

You're going to get the same issues if not worse with free trade. In an auction you can at least see how others are bidding on something in real time.

Actions have the advantage of selling a lot of corals at once, but at lower average prices. You could probably get more by trading your frags one by one but it will be slower.

Auctions probably a great source of income for the club. I don't know the type of revenue it generates and what the club expenditures are. If there is an abundance of money sitting in this non-profit then perhaps it's time to allocate some of it. Maybe the president can appoint a committee to oversee the spending of dollars for new prop corals, and monitor the growth of them. I can't talk smartly about if the system is broke or not but I can say that it needs a swift kick in the butt to get it working for the community.

Coming from Southern California and seeing how they have such a strong community of clubs, participation and camaraderie that span a greater distance than Phoenix (and it's surrounding areas), that I know there is absolutely zero reason why we couldn't do that here

I would love to host a meeting at my house and perhaps set up a bunch of tables to host a backyard swap. I sit on an acre and can definitely host a large group. It will have to be in the cooler part of the year so that we aren't getting beat up by the heat. But if the community doesn't want that, then I will shut up and color, I have no problem with that.

 

[reefer999]

PROP has been advertising that they need new farmers for the past year if not even more at every single meeting. They don't have the space to bring new stuff in, but they do have the funds for it and have made it very clear that it's okay if you become a farmer and lose some coral, which to me is very welcoming since you're not held accountable for the loss of an expensive coral. They will visit your system and make sure that the corals are going to a good home, not just blindly giving corals to a random volunteer and it never growing to be able to frag it for an auction. I believe PROP used to take 10% of the seller's earnings but has now been reduced to 5% since the merge with FRAG. This, in my opinion is fair since a lot of people gather for the meetings and you can sell all your pieces in a reasonable time span and get cashed out immediately which is very convenient. In addition this percentage fee goes to support the club and not somebody's pocket. As far as the variety of coral and high-end aspect, you can't expect to grow out a colony of a 1/4"-1/2" nub, $300-$500 SPS frag in less than a year. So by the time the coral is big enough and is regularly fragged every auction like the ORA Hawkins Echinata and Red Dragon Acro, the rarity of it has decreased significantly.


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[Frick]

I get your point, although my conclusion is the complete opposite. As I understand(and correct me if i'm wrong) that premise behind the auction is to use the proceeds to purchase new high end corals, grow them out in designated tanks and make it available to the area at a reduced price, I'm all for that if it means we take an over inflated $300 coral and grow it out in enough tanks that it becomes a $5 piece. Of curse that's an over exaggeration, and I may be talking out of line here, has that been happening? what new high end corals have been added to the prop growers arsenal? A lot of what I see that the prop farmers offer up are what were high end years ago. Perhaps you can debate that it works. But let's see some new inventory.

Yes that basically is the point of PROP but our farming activity is very small right now. Our last order of rare frags suffered in a tank crash before we could spread it out. We do have cash to spend on rare frags but I have been to busy to organize anything unfortunately.

I'm just like you, I'm an SPS and Zoas guy too. I think that my tank is finally at the point that I can confidently maintain a stable environment for SPS corals. And I would be happy to carve out a slice of my tank for prop corals, but I don't want a bunch of red dragon, cali tort, hawkins etc... I want the community to be introduced and made available to the best the industry has to offer. If we were to do that, then perhaps the the auction would work. But I won't put a $300 prop coral in my tank only to grow it and sell frags for $250, it has to be substantially lower.

So would you like to be a PROP farmer and help organize the next buy?

The club has a unique ability to steer the community in the right direction. But what is the right direction? Is it to maximize club profits? or is it to bring reefers together and make the community stronger? And of course it comes down to who sits on the board and in the positions of power.

Right now we only have two (really three) board members. The lowest we've ever had. Any help we can get to organize will make this club stronger.

From a guy that's on the outside looking in, the auction is already over inflated based on the scenario I provided. Maybe I'm wrong with the intended purpose of this club. We have to ask, "what do the members want?" and provided it. Maybe then you won't get a bunch of excuses as to why the attendance to the meetings were so low. If members are given a choice to go to the meeting or opt to schedule a root canal in its place, then that should be a moment of reflection. Most people out my way say that spending 2-3 hours of round trip driving isn't worth the trip. Make it worth their time.

We would like to offer more but we just don't have enough people growing stuff out. We are more than happy to offer a west side meeting location but I do not know the area or have to time to find something over there.

Auctions probably a great source of income for the club. I don't know the type of revenue it generates and what the club expenditures are. If there is an abundance of money sitting in this non-profit then perhaps it's time to allocate some of it. Maybe the president can appoint a committee to oversee the spending of dollars for new prop corals, and monitor the growth of them. I can't talk smartly about if the system is broke or not but I can say that it needs a swift kick in the butt to get it working for the community.

We still need a club treasurer. They would handle the expenses and the board would vote on how it is spent.

Coming from Southern California and seeing how they have such a strong community of clubs, participation and camaraderie that span a greater distance than Phoenix (and it's surrounding areas), that I know there is absolutely zero reason why we couldn't do that here

6-7 years ago when I was appointed the leader of AZ FRAG I formalized it with elections and a club board, and it turned out really well for a few years. We had meetings with 100+ people showing up. We had auctions that had 300+ items in them. But as the years went on my work and personal life became more and more complicated. That is why I stepped down as president this year. Much of the down fall is my fault.

I would love to host a meeting at my house and perhaps set up a bunch of tables to host a backyard swap. I sit on an acre and can definitely host a large group. It will have to be in the cooler part of the year so that we aren't getting beat up by the heat. But if the community doesn't want that, then I will shut up and color, I have no problem with that.

How about next month or March? PM me if you want to talk more about it.

 

[Vanpire]

I wish I could help. I wish I didn't travel so much that I can help being a farmer.

I think Jason has done a good job. I really appreciate it.

I really also like PROP and FRAG. I would happily pay $100 for a $300 frag, and I have many times at FRAG. I know the money goes to buy more corals, I don't have to pay shipping and I can see what I am getting.

Thanx again for a great Frag meet.

BTW, what's wrong with the Hawkin Echinata and Cali Torts? I love those corals. Luckily, I have them now. But, I am looking for a red dragon. Mine died and I haven't seen one for sale the auction for a while.

But I am open to all of the above.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Yes that basically is the point of PROP but our farming activity is very small right now. Our last order of rare frags suffered in a tank crash before we could spread it out. We do have cash to spend on rare frags but I have been to busy to organize anything unfortunately.
So would you like to be a PROP farmer and help organize the next buy?

I do want to get involved and I wouldn't mind taking on some of the burden. I should have stuck around yesterday to discuss those things....Maybe next time

Right now we only have two (really three) board members. The lowest we've ever had. Any help we can get to organize will make this club stronger.

We would like to offer more but we just don't have enough people growing stuff out. We are more than happy to offer a west side meeting location but I do not know the area or have to time to find something over there.

We still need a club treasurer. They would handle the expenses and the board would vote on how it is spent.

If no one has expressed interest, pending approval from my boss, I can throw my name in for consideration for the position

6-7 years ago when I was appointed the leader of AZ FRAG I formalized it with elections and a club board, and it turned out really well for a few years. We had meetings with 100+ people showing up. We had auctions that had 300+ items in them. But as the years went on my work and personal life became more and more complicated. That is why I stepped down as president this year. Much of the down fall is my fault.

How about next month or March? PM me if you want to talk more about it.

Perhaps March 16th would be best. I'll PM you for more details.

I wish I could help. I wish I didn't travel so much that I can help being a farmer.

I think Jason has done a good job. I really appreciate it.

I agree, don't get me wrong I know the burden of being president and understand how you can get burned out. For me, after the 2nd year of being president I was ready to move on. I have nothing but respect for what Jason has shouldered for so long. I wish that I could step up and offer more help. distance is my biggest concern, I don't mind making the trek every month but I can foresee a lot of traveling or logistical headaches from being so far away.

BTW, what's wrong with the Hawkin Echinata and Cali Torts? I love those corals. Luckily, I have them now. But, I am looking for a red dragon. Mine died and I haven't seen one for sale the auction for a while.

But I am open to all of the above.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with those corals, I just consider them classics, and I definitely want those old school frags in my tank. I got a healthy piece of red dragon yesterday. Funny you say that you lost yours, Bill (SawCJack00) had a healthy colony that RTN'd on him a few weeks ago.

If anyone should be a prop farmer, it's Bill, He has a blue thumb like I never seen before. His keen eye detects problems so quickly and seems to get it under control before it does any damage to his tank. He has expressed an interest... Plus he was one of the first coral farmers long before any of us were in the hobby. "He's been there, done that and if he hasn't he's doing it on payday!"

 

[Vanpire]

I would love to learn from Bill and you guys. I could use a piece of red dragon.

If SoCal has nice corals for reasonable prices, hook me up. I (we) can do a road trip and pick up cool frags and grow out for the community. I don't reinvesting the funds I received recently for the corals into more variety of corals in the valley. I don't mind $200-$300 or even a little more for corals as long as they are not nubs. A good size frag or a micro colony would make me happy. I am into anything colorful. I passed up chances to pick up a Walt Disney or a Homewrecker for a reasonable price because they didn't seem very special to me.

I would like something pretty without all the actinics and very blue LEDs as I still use halides, even 10K halides sometimes, but mostly 20K Radium.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I was going to ask you what lights you used... I picked up a pearl berry and a Shawn Bennett tort (Just because I bought my current tank from Shawn Bennett, I thought it fitting to have a piece of his tort in his tank). I have them under LED at roughly 200 par. Hopefully they do well at that point then I can start ramping the lights up.

As for making a trip to California, that was always my intention. I want to be sure that my tank is stable enough for SPS before I go and spend lots of money. I will let you know, perhaps we can make a weekend trip out of it.

 

[Vanpire]

Hi Jimmy, I am old school and I use halides. Both the Tort and PB are under Radiums. I have some corals under XM 10Ks. The XMs are about three years old but still grows corals faster than brand new radiums. I wish they still made them because my XMs are way past their prime.

Let me know. I would like to do a road trip and bring new corals into the valley. The PB is one of my favorite and I really love it. I hope it does well for u.