proper nutrient levels for SPS

[jlinzmaier]

How is it that a person knows that they're providing enough nutrients for their corals?? Better yet, how do I rule out improper nutrient levels as being a cause for poor sps health?


Let me start by giving a basic description of my tank.

Display is a 180 gal mixed reef which is lightly to moderately stocked with fish. I have a 40 gal refuguim which ended up being converted from a refugium style set up to an algae scrubber set up (increased the flow rate and light period in addition to primarily growing chaeto to maximize nutrient export.)

Lighting is three 400 watt MH's with lumenarc reflectors and two T5 nova extreme fixtures for actinic supplementation (each T5 fixture produces approx 216 watts).

Reeflo orca 250 for a skimmer.

Eheim pro 2 canister filter with Kent carbon.

phosban reactor filled with phosar

200mg ozonizer

dose kalk to maintain alk and ca lvls

water flow is provided by sump return mag drive 21, two tunze waveboxes, 4 maxijet powerheads, and the return from the algae scrubber/refugium.

I do 30 gal water changes each week. Tank is a bare bottom and I siphon all visible detritus during the water change. The water circulation gathers all the detritus into two locations to be siphoned out.

I have an in line chiller and the temp never fluctuates above 79 or below 77.

Feed the fish prime reef pellets 2-3 times daily, feed the LPS and fish frozen mysis and brine 2-3 times per week, also feed zooplankton 2-4 times per week after the lights go out (mixture of coral frenzy, cyclopeeze, and frozen rotifers). I feed the large lps and large anemones bits of squid and krill 1-2 times per week. All food is fortified with selcon per bottle dosing.

About 6mo ago I upgraded my lighting from 250 watt mh's to the 400's becuase I just wasn't getting the bright bold colors out of my corals. Admittedly, the light acclimation I provided was terrible and I burned and bleached some corals. The corals have seemingly recovered from the poor light acclimation and returned to their previous looking colors. The change in lighting didn't have a significant positive impact on the coloration. Because I'm only able to keep the halides about 8 inches above the surface of the water I also shade the halides with some window screen. If I remove any shading from the halides the corals react negatively and begin to bleach. The tank has been status quo now for about 2-3 mo and the corals seem accepting of the light and extend all polyps fully - they just seem to have poor coloration. Not just the sps are affected. I seem to have bland colors with most of my corals. Some are faded a bit brown and others seem to have lost their phoflourescence. Since I've ruled out a lack of lighting as being a factor, I'm questioning if there is a problem with available nutrients - maybe I'm over doing it with the filtration.

Since sps require pristine water conditions I was trying to employ the best filtration I could, but maybe I'm removing the available nutrients they need. I converted my refugium to an algae scrubber becuase I've had significant problems with algae in the display. My chaeto grows great and I thin it regularly. I've been running the GFO for nearly a year and for the past 6-8 mo the phosphate levels have been undetectable with a salifert kit. I would have to assume there is sufficient nutrients in my water if the phosphate level is 0 yet nuisance algae is still able to grow correct??? Nitrate levels have been 0-0.5 for the past year.

I recently shut off my ozonizer to see the effects on the tank thinking that the ozone may be limiting the nutrient to some extent also.

I'm kind of at a loss here. I have nuisance algae yet no phosphates detectable and a large amount of macroalgae growing. Corals seem to show poor health and limited growth in addition to browning and or bleaching. I'm quite certain my lighing is good and I've moved corals to various different locations (shaded vs unshaded. high vs low) and there seems to be no difference in their health or color.

If anyone has any thoughts please chime in. I did my best to provide as much detail to my system as possible but if I left something out please inquire.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.


Jeremy

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Algae will grow with even the lowest nutrient levels. You need to feed more. I would also consider dosing Amino Acids. I've had a similar problem. I'm carbon dosing my tak and the corals became very light in color. I now feed 5-6x a day and have also added another fish (5 total). The colors just seem to be coming around. I don't have very much algae growth though.

 

[volcom69]

Your algea is probably eating the po4 in your tank and thats why you read such low numbers. You have to get rid of the algea via you doing it yourself or getting more of a clean up crew ect. I would not always really on salfert po4 kit chances are there might be some phosphates in your tank. I run my po4 0.02-0.03 per hanna meter and seems to be ok for my tank.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Is having algae a sign of excess nutrients or simply a sign of having available phosphates?? Is it possible to have excess algae growth (indicating excess phosphate) and still not have enough nutrients available for the corals??

 

[SSalty]

Here is what has been working for me:

-55 gallon/10 gallon sump/T5's

-10 gallon water change every 3 weeks

-dosing Kalk and Kent Marine 2 part

-feeding a cube of mysis everyday

My tank has been doing better now that I do a water change every three weeks rather than 5 gallon water change every week.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Here's my plan:

1) Start dosing amino acids (any recommendations on the brand??) I happen to have some seachem reef plus that's been in the fridge for a while.

2) Feed zooplankton each night and leave skimmer off for 2hrs after introduction of food.

3) leave ozonizer off

4) buy more hermits and snails to eat available algae in the display.

5) Carbon filtration???? Should I continue with the eheim filter with carbon or disontinue?????

6) monitor phophates and nitrates twice a week. I'll look into investing in a hanna phosphotometer. If I decide not to go with the phosphotometer, what are some recommendations on precision low range phosphate kits???? (I've had faith in Salifert but if there are other higher quality phosphate kits please advise)

If anyone has any other suggestions please let me know.

Thanks.

Jeremy

 

[volcom69]

You can have algea grow in a low nutruient tank, but could also be a sign of more nutrients in the tank then your test kit is showing. For me i had little bits of hair algea in my tank but my po4 was 0.01 for along time but the hair never went away in fact it grew. So durinig my water change i pulled out what hair i could added more snails and the algea didnt come back. Im still reading 0.02-0.03 which is where i wanna be. I would make sure that you are for sure running very low po4 before adding AAs which might make your algea problem worse then it is. I really wouldnt worry about the zooplankton at all if you feed your fish enough that should be fine. I would figure out first what the algea issue is first then go from there.

 

[jlinzmaier]

My main concern is the overall lack of coloration in the corals not the algae. How is getting rid of the algae going to fix my coral coloration?

My thoughts on the algae growth in the display: 2 main reasons

1) Not enough clean up crew. Admittedly my clean up crew is a bit slim. Adding more of a clean up crew will clean the rock but won't enhance the colors of the corals.

2) Excess phophate not detectable by testing because the algae is utilizing it so quickly. Solution is to enhance filtration of phophate and increase macroalgae phosphate uptake and/or feed less. If the algae is utilizing the phosphate so fast that it's not detectable by test kit then obviously the lack of coral coloration, stunted growth and/or browning isn't becuase the corals are bothered by excess phosphates.

Neither of these solutions will be the fix for the coral coloration thus my overall lack of concern for the algae in the display and my bigger concern of whether or not I have enough available nutrients for my corals. I obviously have enough nutrients for algae but how do I know if there is enough available nutrients for the corals.

Jeremy

 

[dme330i]

Have you considerd trying a zeo style regimen?

- Zeolite Material
- C Source (Bacteria food)

Get your system to LN and ULN state (assuming it's not there with your algae growth), then dose high quality AA's and high quality feeding regimen.

 

[jlinzmaier]

dme330i you reply sounds interesting.


Help me! What's a zeo style regimen? Help me understand what the process is, how it works, and what the effects are on the tank.

(I'm assuming LN is "low nutrient" and "uln is ultra low nutrient". Correct me if I'm wrong)

What would you consider high quality AA's and high quality zooplankton?? The zooplankton I feed now is a combo of cyclpeeze, frozen rotifers, and a little bit of coral frenzy (fortified with selcon). What AA's would you recommend?

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

jeremy, what you described is almost what i believe i have and that is a low nutrient tank. i have a 90 gallon tank with a bubble king mini 200 which is rated for a 265 tank so i'm pulling just about everything out. i have chealeto in my sump but it's pretty stagnant in growth. i can't tell if it has grown in over 2 months. i also run GFO and carbon 24/7. i do dose vodka lightly two times a week. my corals are light in color but i started to feed more heavily with amino acid, phytoplankton, cyclopleeze, fish food ect. i'm also dosing some trace elements into the tank every couple of days. the amino i'm using is a brand that i got from germany called aminostabil. i think aquarium specialty has them. i can't read the instructions on the amino acid bottle but i have a family member who is married to a german person who translated the bottle instructions for me so i know what the correct dosing amount is, so i'm not guessing. i started this dosing about 1 month ago and i believe the colors are getting better now. i have almost no algae in the tank and i don't have to wipe my glass but mabye once or twice a week. i do 15 gal water change every other week. my trates, phosphates measure 0 by saliefert. we'll see in another month or so what happens with the colors. hope this helps in your decision. good luck

 

[OnlyCrimson]

You have to have nitrate and phosphate in the aquarium for corals. You have uber filtration which is good. It just often requires a lot more feeding. Basically what you are doing is selectively nourishing the corals rather than keeping higher nutrient levels in the tank. Basically the tank is low nutrient, but the corals need food from you becasue it doesn't stay in the water for very long. I doubt you need to lower the nutrients anymore than they are. I would advise against that.

 

[shred5]

Do not add amino acids if you have an algae issue.


What test kit did you use? You have to have a good one like merk or hach. Very few hobby test kits can read low enough. Also they only measure orthophosphate so even once you get a reading you still have higher phosphates. It is impossible to have zero, your tank would die. Also like was mentioned the algae and bacteria are consuming allot of the phosphate so a accurate measurement can not be made. Basically if you have algae you have phosphate issues... There are a few types of algae that can survive low phosphates though by up taking phosphate from with in the rock, sand or traping detritus.

Too me it more important to measure the output of your gfo reactor to tell if the media is exhausted.....

You also can use gfo a large skimmer and a fuge and still have allot of nutrients. If there is detritus settling all over. If your skimmer is not getting fed properly etc. too much feeding or the tank is overloaded etc. If cheato is growing you have nutrient. Most macro algae require more nutrients than allot of the nuisance algae’s.

Dave

 

[jlinzmaier]

OK. I'm getting really mixed messages from different people.

I agree that I likely do have a significant amount of phosphate (at least enough to nourish nuisance algae). Either my test kit isn't available to detect what is present or the nuisance algae and chaeto are are taking it in as fast as it becomes present in the water. I'm looking into a photometer so I can get more precise readings on phosphates and nitrates.

With that said, does my tank have enough available nutrients for my corals or not. The overall concensus seems to be that the corals aren't getting enough nutirents - thus the loss of color, stunted growth, and browning.

Should I add amino acids or not??? I'll be beefing up my cleanup crew to limit nuisance algae in the display and once I get a more accurate reading on my phosphate I'll either use more GFO or some other means of decreasing phosphates.

I'll leave the ozonizer off, but should I continue with the GAC filtration via the canister filter?? I'm thinking I'll leave the canister filter off unless my nitrates become a problem.

I already target feed my corals and I'll continue to due so and increase the feedings to once a day 20 min after the lights go out. I agree with OnlyCrimson regarding the concept of my tank having extreme filtration creating low nutrient water thus my corals require more direct feeding.

Any other suggestions??

Jeremy

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12530810#post12530810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
OK. I'm getting really mixed messages from different people.

I agree that I likely do have a significant amount of phosphate (at least enough to nourish nuisance algae). Either my test kit isn't available to detect what is present or the nuisance algae and chaeto are are taking it in as fast as it becomes present in the water. I'm looking into a photometer so I can get more precise readings on phosphates and nitrates.

With that said, does my tank have enough available nutrients for my corals or not. The overall concensus seems to be that the corals aren't getting enough nutirents - thus the loss of color, stunted growth, and browning.

Should I add amino acids or not??? I'll be beefing up my cleanup crew to limit nuisance algae in the display and once I get a more accurate reading on my phosphate I'll either use more GFO or some other means of decreasing phosphates.

I'll leave the ozonizer off, but should I continue with the GAC filtration via the canister filter?? I'm thinking I'll leave the canister filter off unless my nitrates become a problem.

I already target feed my corals and I'll continue to due so and increase the feedings to once a day 20 min after the lights go out. I agree with OnlyCrimson regarding the concept of my tank having extreme filtration creating low nutrient water thus my corals require more direct feeding.

Any other suggestions??

Jeremy

Fact is no one can tell you what is causing the loss of colors.. first off There are no pics. There are so many reasons a coral can loose color not just nutrients. I know people like to say this is why or that is why but no one can tell you for sure. Could be lighting, flow, nutrients (too many or not enough). Not the right amount of trace elements, mag, calcium, dkh, bad test kit, bad batch of salt, contamination, yellowing of the water, lack of food, to much food, a additive, overall tank stability (this one is huge) etc. People can only give suggestions and directions to look. Ultimately you need to figure out the problem.

Dave

 

[Sophia&Dad]

Perhaps something is missing from your initial description, but kalkwasser will not replenish alk. What are your Mg, Ca and Alk values, how stable are they and what kit(s) do you use to measure these?

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12530903#post12530903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sophia&Dad
kalkwasser will not replenish alk.

Yes it will .. it raises both calcium and alk levels.

Dave

 

[jlinzmaier]

Ca, alk, mag, and salinity are all extremely stable and fluctuate very little if at all. Ca is 420-430. Alk is 2.5 meq. Mag is 1325 and salinitity is 1.026. Specific gravity is measured with a refractometer and all my test kits are by Salifert (they are all less than 6 mo old). I use red sea salt mix, and don't dose anything other than magnesium and kalk.

I hear where your coming from shred5. There are endless possiblities. Just hoping people could narrow things down for me and my intention with this thread was to simply get a feel for whether I have excess nutrients or I'm limiting my corals of nutrients. Nutrient levels are one of the key factors I'm trying to rule out in regards to the coral coloration.

From the feedback on this thread I think I have limited nutrients in my water column (maybe with the exception of phosphate) due to my excessive filtration. I'll slow down on the filtration, monitor nitrates and phosphates carefully, increase feeding and see what happens. I'd like to dose a quality amino acid supplement, does anyone have suggestions on a specific brand??

Thanks for your input everyone.

 

[reefsahoy]

how much and how often are you doing water changes and are you using ro+di for top off and salt mix? how old is your tank and how old are the rocks that you have in your tank meaning when did you put them in? do you know if the rocks have phosphate leaching? if you can put one of the rocks in a tub of salt water for a day then test that water to see if posphates leached into that water. i did just that with some rocks that i was going to put in my tank but when i did that test the water before had no measureable phosphate then i put the rocks in for 24 hrs and measured phosphates like crazy in the water. this tub did not have any filtration just circulation so the phosphate must have come from the rocks.

 

[seattownreefer]

any red bugs? had the same problem with color fading.