Proper QT method

[RBU1]

I had a very good conversation yesterday with an individual that is very knowledgeable when it comes to QT process and Angelfish in general. I actually think I learned what I might have been doing wrong and hope I can improve my process going forward.

From what I was told the key is not to treat a fish for several weeks unless you have no option. When you bring the fish home observe and feed heavily for the first week or two to make sure the fat reserve of the fish is up so if you need to treat the fish has a better chance of taking the treatment.

I went wrong "I think" by placing the newly purchased fish in a tank with copper. My thought process was that the fish are already coming from a system with copper at .25 mine is at .50 so its just the next dosing amount when you are using cupramine. Based on the conversation this idea may have been what caused a few fish to stop eating.

From what I was told most angels have flukes and should be treated with a product like Prazipro just to play it safe. After the intial 2 week fatten up period of course....The individual only treats with copper if he sees something and does not subject the fish to the copper to play it safe. But you must be good at observing and watching the fish for a month or 2.

The individual also does 100% water changes between treatments and between new additions to the QT cleaning the tank down also.

I hope this gets read by the individual and maybe he can comment adding more valuable information that might help more of us going forward.

I would also like to get some comments from other individuals that QT fish on a regular basis for some more feedback.

 

[sfboarders]

This is a good topic and I have some new fishes that I purchased and one of them shows signs of ich. I've only had the fish since last weekend (4 days). The blue hippo tang is eating, but not as much as I'd like for it to eat. Should I treat for ich right away or get it to eat more and then treat ich?

 

[WDLV]

I have never treated, quarrantined or kept an angel. So, toss out anything that doesn't apply. However if I were to keep one I would start off by quarrantining it in about a ~55 gallon tank. I would use osmotic shock to get rid of any external or gill paracites by lowering the salinity to 1.009. After a week or so of observation at this SG, I would treat it with a de-wormer.
After a month at 1.009 I would raise the SG to 1.021-1.025 and keep it in that for another few weeks to a month depending on whether there were ever any symptoms.

I would only treat with copper, formalin or antibiotics if it was warranted. I have only been keeping clowns and an occasional tang for the last two years and it has been during that time frame that I have started my own quarrantine procedures. What I have listed above is consistant with what I have found to work best for me on tangs and clowns.
While there are some fish that do not react well to medications and low salinity, angels are not listed among them.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I had a very good conversation yesterday with an individual that is very knowledgeable when it comes to QT process and Angelfish in general. I actually think I learned what I might have been doing wrong and hope I can improve my process going forward.

From what I was told the key is not to treat a fish for several weeks unless you have no option. When you bring the fish home observe and feed heavily for the first week or two to make sure the fat reserve of the fish is up so if you need to treat the fish has a better chance of taking the treatment.

I went wrong "I think" by placing the newly purchased fish in a tank with copper. My thought process was that the fish are already coming from a system with copper at .25 mine is at .50 so its just the next dosing amount when you are using cupramine. Based on the conversation this idea may have been what caused a few fish to stop eating.

From what I was told most angels have flukes and should be treated with a product like Prazipro just to play it safe. After the intial 2 week fatten up period of course....The individual only treats with copper if he sees something and does not subject the fish to the copper to play it safe. But you must be good at observing and watching the fish for a month or 2.

The individual also does 100% water changes between treatments and between new additions to the QT cleaning the tank down also.

I hope this gets read by the individual and maybe he can comment adding more valuable information that might help more of us going forward.

I would also like to get some comments from other individuals that QT fish on a regular basis for some more feedback.

Sometimes I delay rigorous QT for some fish. I only do so with fish that are not feeding well, more precisely, with species of fish that don't tend to feed well quickly. As far as angels go, the larger species will tend to feed well quickly (except the Regal).

If a fish eats well quickly on prepared food and is vigorous, there is no reason to delay rigorous QT.

For the difficult fish, while I delay treatment I use my diatom filter to eliminating almost all waterborne ich in QT. I also use UV against waterborne bacteria and viruses in QT. Live rock is a good food for them to pick on and to maintain the live rock in QT I cannot use a drug or hypo that will kill many lives (food sources) on the LR.

I use straight copper and pulse it periodically. I find this actually reliable enough and easier to administer. The periodic change seems predictable to me. I find it unnecessary to test for copper every time I pulse copper.

 

[WDLV]

Live rock is a good food for them to pick on and to maintain the live rock in QT I cannot use a drug or hypo that will kill many lives (food sources) on the LR.

I use straight copper and pulse it periodically. I find this actually reliable enough and easier to administer. The periodic change seems predictable to me. I find it unnecessary to test for copper every time I pulse copper.

Do you consider this a quarrantine tank or is this a FOWLR tank you're talking about? If this is what you use as a quarrantine tank, how long in between are these "pulses."

While there is a wide range of effective means to run a quarrantine tank, I think there should be a general consesnus on certain factors. A QT with LR is not a very good idea for a few reasons.
1. The LR absorbs the medication and:
a. reduces it's affectiveness
b. retains the medications you use and difuses them back in when the concentration drops allowing remaining paracites to develop resistance to the medication.
2. Provides a place for paracites to hide between residents.
3. Makes the LR completely useless for a reef system (particularly with copper) should you want to use it later.

Instead of LR I would use flower pots, large diameter PVC, plastic plants and other man-made decorations for your fish to hide in while in quarrantine.

If you're concerned about them not eating, black worms are hard for fish to resist. Even butterflies that are not used to eating from the water column can usually be convinced to eat these when they will eat nothing else....

 

[wooden_reefer]

Do you consider this a quarrantine tank or is this a FOWLR tank you're talking about? If this is what you use as a quarrantine tank, how long in between are these "pulses."

While there is a wide range of effective means to run a quarrantine tank, I think there should be a general consesnus on certain factors. A QT with LR is not a very good idea for a few reasons.
1. The LR absorbs the medication and:
a. reduces it's affectiveness
b. retains the medications you use and difuses them back in when the concentration drops allowing remaining paracites to develop resistance to the medication.
2. Provides a place for paracites to hide between residents.
3. Makes the LR completely useless for a reef system (particularly with copper) should you want to use it later.

Instead of LR I would use flower pots, large diameter PVC, plastic plants and other man-made decorations for your fish to hide in while in quarrantine.

If you're concerned about them not eating, black worms are hard for fish to resist. Even butterflies that are not used to eating from the water column can usually be convinced to eat these when they will eat nothing else....

First, if you choose only species of fish that will feed well quickly, and the individual is vigorous, you can start rigorous QT at once. I suggest that newbies restrict choices of fish to this.

I suppose the use of mature live rock from DT as food for the difficult fish is better called pre-QT acclimation. Make sure the transfer of LR is one-way, not back into the DT except after long enough fishlessness.

I agree, as I have said many times, do not use LR as the medium of filtration during actual QT. After the fish has been acclimated to prepared food and the actual QT begins, remove all LR from QT. LR is not the medium of filtration in QT, but a food source for the fish during pre-QT isolation/acclimation.

 

[WDLV]

First, if you choose only species of fish that will feed well quickly, and the individual is vigorous, you can start rigorous QT at once. I suggest that newbies restrict choices of fish to this.

I suppose the use of mature live rock from DT as food for the difficult fish is better called pre-QT acclimation. Make sure the transfer of LR is one-way, not back into the DT except after long enough fishlessness.

OK. I like this concept. I had the impression you were suggesting that this was a proper quarrantine. If only I could choose common, hardy fish to acclimate this might be a viable option.

I agree, as I have said many times, do not use LR as the medium of filtration during actual QT.

Sorry if my questions are redundant. I'm new to this particular forum. I've developed my QT/disease treatment procedures based on experienced members in smaller, more species focused clubs.

After the fish has been acclimated to prepared food and the actual QT begins, remove all LR from QT. LR is not the medium of filtration in QT, but a food source for the fish during pre-QT isolation/acclimation.

The fish I've quarrantined have been mostly types that eat from the water column. I get how this LR pre-QT acclimation might be beneficial for fish like angels and butterflies.
So, what would be your recommendation for someone who found the perfect clarion for the perfect price but has two ick spots on it? Aggressive quarrantine or the LR pre-acclimation method mentioned previously?

Thanks!

 

[wooden_reefer]

I get how this LR pre-QT acclimation might be beneficial for fish like angels and butterflies.
So, what would be your recommendation for someone who found the perfect clarion for the perfect price but has two ick spots on it? Aggressive quarrantine or the LR pre-acclimation method mentioned previously?

Thanks!

Many more butterflies are difficult fish than angels are. Nearly all large species angels will eat well quickly and can be QT'ed at once. many butterflies are difficult.

Yes, any vigorous fish that eats well but has light visiable ich infestation are excellent choices. Often, if you ask discreetly, you can get a bargain. Ich when caught and treated early is 100% curable. Also, that a fish comes down with ich is NO negative indication of general health. Very healthy fish that can live for many many years can come down with ich at the LFS.

 

[RegalAngel]

So, what would be your recommendation for someone who found the perfect clarion for the perfect price but has two ick spots on it? Aggressive quarrantine or the LR pre-acclimation method mentioned previously?

Thanks!

1. Heat up your soldering gun with a pointed tip;
2. Remove fish to flat soft surface, ie wrap in wet face towel;
3. With the area of the Ich located, barely tap the surface of the Ich with the hot soldering tip;
4. Wipe area with wet paper towel;
5. Place fish back in tank.

This will kill the Ich instantaneously. If you only have two spots then you are done. This will not hurt the fish as you are not touching the fish only the surface of the Ich spot.

Been there & done it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Do you consider this a quarrantine tank or is this a FOWLR tank you're talking about? If this is what you use as a quarrantine tank, how long in between are these "pulses."

While there is a wide range of effective means to run a quarrantine tank, I think there should be a general consesnus on certain factors. A QT with LR is not a very good idea for a few reasons.
1. The LR absorbs the medication and:
a. reduces it's affectiveness
b. retains the medications you use and difuses them back in when the concentration drops allowing remaining paracites to develop resistance to the medication.
2. Provides a place for paracites to hide between residents.
3. Makes the LR completely useless for a reef system (particularly with copper) should you want to use it later.

Instead of LR I would use flower pots, large diameter PVC, plastic plants and other man-made decorations for your fish to hide in while in quarrantine.

If you're concerned about them not eating, black worms are hard for fish to resist. Even butterflies that are not used to eating from the water column can usually be convinced to eat these when they will eat nothing else....

LR, in large pieces, is not a good medium of filtration in QT for many possibly valid reasons.

To me, there are three. First it is expensive. Second it is bulky and cannot be removed or included in a power filter or set aside easily. (when you have to use a drug that affects nitrification gravely) Third, if lives have grown on them, their dieoff when using copper or hypo will polute the QT water.

As for absorbing copper, all calcereous materials as the medium of filtration will. Personally, I do not shun calcereous materials in QT, although I don't want to be opinionated in this subject. It is just that I don't shun it.

I use straight copper as pulses in QT when I use a calcereous filter medium. I find this method easy and effective enough (in combination of ease and effectiveness). I find that copper almost always drop from 0.3 to 0.15 ppm within between 48 hours most of the time. I generally do not test for copper every time I pulse, but several times. I know I will not exceed the max by enough to worry. Plus, the behavior of the fish may tell.

I have no opinion to the idea that copper has to be maintened at a narrow range. Logically, this is better but more difficult. So the combination of ease and effectiveness may not be superior.

 

[WDLV]

1. Heat up your soldering gun with a pointed tip;
2. Remove fish to flat soft surface, ie wrap in wet face towel;
3. With the area of the Ich located, barely tap the surface of the Ich with the hot soldering tip;
4. Wipe area with wet paper towel;
5. Place fish back in tank.

This will kill the Ich instantaneously. If you only have two spots then you are done. This will not hurt the fish as you are not touching the fish only the surface of the Ich spot.

Been there & done it.

I've been reefing for 12+ years and I am 100% certain that is the first time I have ever heard that one!

Feel free to check into your local mental health clinic at any time!

Many more butterflies are difficult fish than angels are. Nearly all large species angels will eat well quickly and can be QT'ed at once. many butterflies are difficult.

Yes, any vigorous fish that eats well but has light visiable ich infestation are excellent choices. Often, if you ask discreetly, you can get a bargain. Ich when caught and treated early is 100% curable. Also, that a fish comes down with ich is NO negative indication of general health. Very healthy fish that can live for many many years can come down with ich at the LFS.

I think you got the impression that I'm a newbie. What I meant was that I have been focusing on clowns for the last two years. I had ten years with various fish and cnidarians under my belt before that. I started strict quarrantine during the time that I started keeping rare and difficult clowns.
I've kept butterfly species (Pyramid, CBB, Triangle) and many different species of tangs. I just never ventured into angels because my reefs have been too small to have them picking at my zoos and sponges and I don't like the deep water angels as much.
I was just curious about how you'd treat an angel that was to expensive to lose. If they are like tangs they will clear ick up pretty easily without medication.

 

[RBU1]

So, what would be your recommendation for someone who found the perfect clarion for the perfect price but has two ick spots on it? Aggressive quarrantine or the LR pre-acclimation method mentioned previously?

Thanks!

Well what I would do is.....

Make sure the tank the fish is going in is well cycled so there is no chance of amonnia or be prepared to do 100% water changes regulary.

Get the fish eating for a week or two and observe. If the ich gets real bad I would treat with Cupramine.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"So, what would be your recommendation for someone who found the perfect clarion for the perfect price but has two ick spots on it? Aggressive quarrantine or the LR pre-acclimation method mentioned previously?"

If it is feeding well and vigorous, nothing special.

Just QT as usual.

I QT in basically the same way for all fish from commercial sources, irrespective of appearance or how vigorous it looks. eight or more weeks of active treatment in QT.

 

[RBU1]

If I knew how to do a poll....I would ask...

How many QT and only treat if they see visible signs?

How many QT and treat reguardless?

How long have you been QTing fish?

 

[wooden_reefer]

If I knew how to do a poll....I would ask...

How many QT and only treat if they see visible signs?

How many QT and treat reguardless?

How long have you been QTing fish?

I don't like polls on this subject.

many people continue to suffer from ich and bacterial infections and many books tell them to

I prefer reason than polls.

 

[wooden_reefer]

A few books tell you to not treat against ich until you see problems, otherwise it is zealous!

I prefer to be zealous and successful than bold and reckless.

 

[RBU1]

I don't like polls on this subject.

many people continue to suffer from ich and bacterial infections and many books tell them to

I prefer reason than polls.

OK let me re-phrase it then....

I would like some opinions on this.

Is that better?
I like to get different views to see how people are doing things.

 

[tangfish]

Just my 2 cents.

First of all, I have not had ich for a while and only have had it, when I introduce a new fish that I have not QT. Hhhmmm, wonder why I have ich!!!!!!!!!!

With that said, if a fish starts to get ich, I soak nori in selcon and add selcon directly to the water to beef up the vitamin intake.

If that fails, I always have used Ich-Attacked, followed the instructions, did massive water changes after the treatment and it went away. Never have lost a fish in 2+ years from ich. Just money and time doing large water changes for being dumb.

The reason I don't QT after a fish gets ich, is my fish are usually large (tank set-up 325) and moving them into a smaller tank would be more stressful. Plus, the whole tank has now been exposed to ich. So you have to treat the whole tank to rid it of ich.

That's what I do and it has worked for me.


NEVER heard of this... crazy.

"Heat up your soldering gun with a pointed tip...." That's new, what happens when the fish jumps and the soldering gun touches the fish? And/or the fish is covered in ich and out of the water to burn off 20 plus parasites?

 

[LargeAngels]

1. Heat up your soldering gun with a pointed tip;
2. Remove fish to flat soft surface, ie wrap in wet face towel;
3. With the area of the Ich located, barely tap the surface of the Ich with the hot soldering tip;
4. Wipe area with wet paper towel;
5. Place fish back in tank.

This will kill the Ich instantaneously. If you only have two spots then you are done. This will not hurt the fish as you are not touching the fish only the surface of the Ich spot.

Been there & done it.

Are you serious????? You do know that ich is not always visible on the fish so even if you only see two spots there can be many more that will show up later. Not to mention what could be in the gills.

 

[RegalAngel]

Are you serious????? You do know that ich is not always visible on the fish so even if you only see two spots there can be many more that will show up later. Not to mention what could be in the gills.

This is an excellent method for removing the obvious Ich especially on fins and when only a few spots. It should not be used in those situations where there is Ich in the gills.

I use this method in combination with water medication and it works well.

If you have not used this then give it a try. It is minor surgery and should be viewed as that. Have you ever had a skin disorder sprayed with liquid nitrogen? Ok you get the idea now.

Warning: If you are of poor vision or do not have a steady hand do NOT attempt this method!