Prophylactic Treatment in QT

[Orcrone]

I have two tangs (Pacific Sailfin & Blue Hippo) in two separate QTs. All this talk of ich has me worried. Just wondering if anyone uses a prophylactic treatment (copper or hyposalinity) and what results you've had. E.g. Worked great, fish died from treatment, lost bio filter, fish did or didn't eat, fish wasn't doing well so stopped the treatment, etc.

Thanks,
Marc

 

[evsalty]

I use copper for proactive qt'ing of ich with all new fish unless they are known to not do well in copper then I do hypo. I haven't lost any fish this way personally. I would rather loose a fish in QT then to wipe out my whole tank of fish. I consider it preventative medicine. I see too many threads of people who say that they qt'd for X weeks via observation only and then later they have an ich outbreak and wonder why.

 

[RBU1]

I use copper for proactive qt'ing of ich with all new fish unless they are known to not do well in copper then I do hypo. I haven't lost any fish this way personally. I would rather loose a fish in QT then to wipe out my whole tank of fish. I consider it preventative medicine. I see too many threads of people who say that they qt'd for X weeks via observation only and then later they have an ich outbreak and wonder why.

These people you talk about having fish in QT to observe that then get crypt in their main tanks....How long of an observation period did they have?

 

[RBU1]

I can tell you I have not had good luck with treating fish with copper....I lost about 4 fish that were all doing great till I got to full strengh. This has me gun shy with doing further copper treatments. I currently have an achilles hybrid in qt. It is 4 weeks today and he is eating and acting great. I have not seen a spot on him and I check him every morning with a flashlight......

 

[Orcrone]

I can tell you I have not had good luck with treating fish with copper....I lost about 4 fish that were all doing great till I got to full strengh. This has me gun shy with doing further copper treatments. I currently have an achilles hybrid in qt. It is 4 weeks today and he is eating and acting great. I have not seen a spot on him and I check him every morning with a flashlight......

Were they infected fish or being dosed as a prophylactic treaatment? Just wondering if they were already weakened. I keep weighing the potential harm of treating a healthy fish for a condition that does not exist vs. the possibility of accidentally allowing crypt into the DT. On another web board prophylactic copper treatments are NOT recommended except for Acanthurus tangs, which includes the Achilles.

 

[evsalty]

There are several different types of copper medicines. I do not know what the differences are but for me I have always used Copper Power since the mid 90's.

RBU1 - as far as observation goes you can observe them for a year and still not see any visible ich. Ich lives in the gills most of the time while in that phase of life until the fish is heavily stressed. Then you start to see it on the body. This is obviously not always the case as I am sure some fish will show in QT but as you can see observation alone is just that "an observation" IMHO.

 

[RBU1]

Were they infected fish or being dosed as a prophylactic treaatment? Just wondering if they were already weakened. I keep weighing the potential harm of treating a healthy fish for a condition that does not exist vs. the possibility of accidentally allowing crypt into the DT. On another web board prophylactic copper treatments are NOT recommended except for Acanthurus tangs, which includes the Achilles.

All the fish I purchase go in my QT. Of all the fish I lost in QT some showed signs of crypt and some did not. It was within a couple days of getting to full strengh copper when they died. So your saying on the other board they would treat the Achilles Hybrid with copper. See I thought copper was a no no on tangs.....I guess there is no set in stone answer.

 

[Stuart60611]

All the fish I purchase go in my QT. Of all the fish I lost in QT some showed signs of crypt and some did not. It was within a couple days of getting to full strengh copper when they died. So your saying on the other board they would treat the Achilles Hybrid with copper. See I thought copper was a no no on tangs.....I guess there is no set in stone answer.

For what it is worth, I have treated tangs, puffers, wrasses, and angels with cupramine without issue, despite their sensitivity to copper. I think the absolute key is to ramp up to the .5 level extremely slowly. The only time I have had any of these fish show any signs of a negative reaction to cupramine (other than some going on a hungar strike during treatment which is not usually a problem if the fish is healthy) is when I ramped up too quickly. With respect to the times in which your fish reacted negatively to cupramine, did you reach the .5 level quicker than within 5 days after starting treatment, and did you gradually increase the cupramine level slightly each day until you reached the .5 level? If not, I bet that is the cause of your problems. In fact, both of my puffers have gone through cupramine treatment of .5 for 21 days two times b/c I stupidly introduced ich into the display a second time when I failed to, once again, follow appropriate quarantine procedures. Both puffers, despite being scaleless and extremely sensitive to copper, tolerated the treatment just fine on both occassions and even continued to eat and behaive normal throughout both treatments and are doing very well today and are ich free nearly 8 months after second treatment (had both of them for nearly a couple of years now).

 

[Orcrone]

All the fish I purchase go in my QT. Of all the fish I lost in QT some showed signs of crypt and some did not. It was within a couple days of getting to full strengh copper when they died. So your saying on the other board they would treat the Achilles Hybrid with copper. See I thought copper was a no no on tangs.....I guess there is no set in stone answer.

Here's a link to the thread. Item 2 under the heading "Post Acclimation" lists it. Tangs may be susceptible to copper. I honestly don't know. But I believe it is recommended because Acanthurus tangs are so susceptible to ich. Of course this assumes the tank is ich free because once the tang lands in the DT the copper treatment in QT doesn't mean a thing.

 

[Orcrone]

Double Post

 

[Jacob D]

as far as observation goes you can observe them for a year and still not see any visible ich. Ich lives in the gills most of the time while in that phase of life until the fish is heavily stressed. Then you start to see it on the body. This is obviously not always the case as I am sure some fish will show in QT but as you can see observation alone is just that "an observation" IMHO.

Would you mind citing a source for this bit of information?

I have read some documentation to the effect that dormant tomonts have been known to exist for as long as 4-5 months but I have only heard the rumor (it could very well be true, but I haven't come across a reliable source as of yet) that Crypt. can live indefinitely, or a year or more as in your example. I'm not saying one thing is or isn't possible, but if you have a good source on this I would appreciate it.

In any case, dormant tomonts are not going to be effected by any treatments that the fish can survive, so it raises the question, for me at least, why bother treatment unless there is clearly an active infestation? I realize that some people are striving for an ich-free system, which I don't think is impossible, but I'm not in that camp. IMO there are probably a lot more people who think they have an ich-free system than there are that actually do.

I think everyone should do the best they can to balance treating fish vs. stressing them. Some fish can handle more than others. Personally I have had better overall results since I stopped copper (and/or Chloroquine Phosphate) as prophylaxis... meaning I have lost less fish in QT and no more or less fish lost in my DT vs. before when I treated everybody.

 

[RBU1]

Well I have decided to use Paraguard. I spoke with Seachem today and trust what they are telling me. I think the trick to Paraguard is you have to dose it at the same time everyday because it becomes inert in 24 hours. Maybe this is why Paraguard did not work for some people. I put a half dose in today to make sure the fish don't show a negative reaction to it.

 

[Orcrone]

Would you mind citing a source for this bit of information?

I have read some documentation to the effect that dormant tomonts have been known to exist for as long as 4-5 months but I have only heard the rumor (it could very well be true, but I haven't come across a reliable source as of yet) that Crypt. can live indefinitely, or a year or more as in your example. I'm not saying one thing is or isn't possible, but if you have a good source on this I would appreciate it.

I don't think he's saying crypt lives in a dormant state for a year. I believe he means that sometimes the signs of ich are subtle and that many people would miss the signs even if they stared at the fish for a year.

 

[RBU1]

Yeah I think you are correct. He is saying crypt could be in the gills and you don't see it. I don't think I believe that thought but hey anything is possible.

If you think about it the life cycle consists of a stage of the crypt being attached to the fish. Then it falls off and is in cyst form. Then it enters the water column looking for a host. What are the odds that all the time it only attaches to the gills. I have a hard time believing his statement.

 

[Orcrone]

Actually the gills are a very common place for them to attach, but it generally will be pretty obvious from the fast respiration.

 

[RBU1]

I understand its a common place, but find it hard to believe that it would be the only place....

 

[Orcrone]

I understand its a common place, but find it hard to believe that it would be the only place....

Unusual at least. When my DT had ich several fish had spots. My onespot foxface had no spots but from his fast breathing it was obvious he was also afflicted.

 

[Orcrone]

Part of the decision's made for me. Noticed sailifin breathing heavy & then my girlfriened found white spots on the tail & fins. Extremely happy he's in a QT. :rollface:

 

[RegalAngel]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16566626&postcount=23

 

[RBU1]

One thing the aggressive method does not metion is the increased risk to the fish. Don't think many of us would care about the cost of the medications, but don't want to poison our fish. If 6 weeks of having a clean fish in QT is all I have to do I am all for that......But this time I choose to use Paraguard after 4 weeks of being clean in QT. I will use Paraguard for 2 full weeks then to the main tank he will go......