Pump and Maintenenace Question

[PatMayo]

I think this is kind of chemical related. If not please feel free to move the thread. I was told you should clean your pumps every quarter. I can get nowhere near that time frame. I have to clean my pumps about every 2 to 3 weeks. They get crusted with precipitate. I assume it is calcium.

I do dose a lot to maintain the calcium and alkalinity, but every 2 to 3 weeks is a lot of maintenance. In fact I bought another return pump so I can change it out quickly, I had one stop on me and by the time I got it cleaned and ready to go a lot of time passes. Now I just change pumps out while the other is cleaning. Kind of an exchange program.

Is this just the way it is because of the high additions of calk and alk?

I drip limewater 24/7 and Randy's 2 part 24/7 as well to maintain 420 to 430 calcium and 3.0 to 3.2 meq/l alklinity.

Am I doomed to be a pump cleaning machine forever? Are there better pumps to use?

I use Seio 1100's, mj 1200 and my return pump is a mag 7.

Regards,

Pat

 

[DrBegalke]

I would think this is because of either Ca/alk being to high, or possible Mg being to low.

What are your Ca/alk levels?

 

[PatMayo]

My alkalinity varies between 2.9 aned 3.2 meq/l
My calcium varies between 410 and 440.
I keep my magnesium between 1250 and 1325.
I use salifert test kits so I think the accuracy is pretty good. My ph runs between 8.05 at night to arouind 8.15 or so during the lighting period.

I use a ph meter so I think that is pretty accurate as well.

Regards,

Pat

 

[bertoni]

A pump that runs at a lower temperature might help, if it's calcium carbonate you're seeing. Does it fizz when vinegar is applied? Perhaps some of the external or more efficent pumps. Downsizing might help, too, if that fits in your circulation scheme.

 

[PatMayo]

I will have to test that. I clean the pumps in a vinegar and water solution but I have not tested it with pure vinegar to see if it fizzes.

By downsizing you mean smaller pumps with less flow?

It is a white substance on the equipment. It gets all over the impeller and the impelller housing area and eventually will not let the impeller move at all. I would guess that it is calcium carbonate.

I may have to do something like that because the maintenance of keeping these clean and operational is a pain in the neck. Cleaning every 2 or 3 weeks is not a joy.

What return pump would be more efficient Jonathan? I hate to use an external pump because of possible leak issues. Are there exteranl pumps that are very safe and have a good track record?

At this point I am kind of leaving price in the backround just because I have so much time and money into it now that I can't turn back.

Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

Regards,

Pat

Regards,

Pat

 

[jdieck]

What is your normal PH level? That amount of precipitation is rather unusual. With your Alkalinity and magnesium levels it will happen only at high PH. Also look at the pump cooling. If the pump is overheating the precipitation is very quick. The Magdrives receive cooling from the circulating water but also from the flow around them, If the mump chamber is too small it might not be getting enough flow around it to cool it properly.
Also if you are dripping your Kalk the pump chamber you may be creating a localized high Alkalinity and Calcium. Try dripping it somewhere were the pump does not receive it or drip it down flow from the pump or farther up flow to give it more time to properly mix.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you dose the additives (including limewater) so that they hit the pumps before mixing in well? If so, try dosing in a different area, or dose it more slowly, in the AM, switch to Recipe 2, etc.

 

[reverendmaynard]

That seems like an awfully low PH for dripping lime water 24/7. Perhaps you should try another meter to test the accuracy of yours.

 

[PatMayo]

I will have to try all of those solutions. I am using a pinpoint ph meter. I usually calibrate it once a month minimum. That does not mean it is not correct. I may buy another model meter to test it. I don't know of anyone I can borrow from.
I drip the 2 part just after my cheato and right before the return pump. There is not a lot of circulation there I must admit. I wonder if by putting a powehead in there it would help.

Randy If my ph meter is correct I really need to drip your number 1 part in order to keep the ph up to an acceptable. Not enough fresh air.

I moved the drips from the cheato area to the area after the cheato but before the return pump. If I move it to the other end of the sump then it gets dripped into the area where the skimmer is. I thought the skimmer would get fouled more quickly than the return. So I guess I will have to try several things and see what works best.

reverendmaynard, I always thought that as well. I drip saturated limewater but I can only drip a little less than 3/4 gallon per day. I don't have enough evaporation. But my doser will not dose enough if I have more evaporation. My new two part doser would but then I wouldn't be able to drip the 2 part. So I guess I will have to try a lot of different things to see what works best.

Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts. I will have to get to work trying different things and see if I can get the maintenance reduced. It is kind of a pain.

Cleaning pumps once per quarter is a lot more tolerable than every couple of weeks. Yiikkkeesssss.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Pat

 

[reverendmaynard]

I don't think that's too little kalk to keep the ph in the 8.3-8.4 range. My tank is a 125 + 30gal sump and I only add about 1.25 gals of 1stp/gal kalk and get that PH range (sometimes higher). I really don't clean my pumps at all, and I've been dripping kalk for about 4 months now.

As you said, fresh air seems like an issue since the ph should be around 8.2 even without kalk. I wonder if excess co2 is causing the hydroxide to convert to carbonate so fast that it combines with the calcium before it can mix with the sw properly. I'm not sure how much your setup would allow for fresh air to be vented to it, but that's probably what I would try next.

 

[PatMayo]

I just added a powerhead to the sump. I now have 2. One for the cheato and one in the area where the return pump is and the dripping of kalk and the 2 part. Lots of rolling flow. I did also notice that there are sheets of what looks like calcium that just peeled off the sump sides. I had to actually pump some water out of the sump let the garbage settle on the bottom of the container and pump the water back in. I didn't want the powerhead or return pump to get clogged. I mean lots of stuff.

As well and I dont know if this is related but I never can get any type of algae to grow in the sump. It's pristine and clean. Other than the stuff previouosly described.

What do you guys think? I wonder if the extreme flow will help?

Regards,

Pat

 

[jdieck]

Tha is ovbiously precipitation from the supplementation and lack of flow but I am afraid that just recirculating more within the pump suroundings will still keep the Alk and PH high in that section. You will know if you have solved the issue when the PH and Alkalinity in that section comes to normal levels. What is the PH and Alkalinity in the pump section of the sump when you are dosing? For the time being I will recommend to switch to the DIY that uses Baking Soda rather that Baked baking soda.

 

[PatMayo]

Here are the test reading from today:
10:25 am 10/14/06 water taken from main tank.
Temp 80
ph 8.08
alkalinity 3.09
calcium 380
SG 1.026
Mag 1200 (I added some ESV Liquid type)

Next test at 8:30 pm after I added the powerhead to the area of the sump where the return pump is:
Temp 79
PH 8.20
Alkalinity 2.92 ( I turned up the 2 part dosing pump just a pinch)
Calcium 400
Mag 1260
SG 1.026

Last testing tonight at 10:50 pm MH turned off at 10 pm
I changed to plain baking soda but it has not gone into the tank yet. I also got the test water from the area of the sump where the return is and where I added another power head.
Temp 79
PH 8.15
Alkalinity 2.97
Calcium 405

The unbaked soda has not reached the tank yet at the time of the tests. I am afraid that by not using the baked my ph will go too low. Even with cheato and opposing light cycle. I am going to go ahead and try it tonight and see what the ph is like in the am. It's interesting that the readings are not very far off where the readings were when I took the water from the main tank. Maybe adding the 2 powerheads to the sump will help with the mixing and my problem will be solved. (I'm not convinced though because the powerheads in the main tank have the same problem of frequent maintenance. I will see how the ph is in the am using the unbaked baking soda.

I also recalibrated my ph meter tonight and didn't notice any huge difference. I can only assume if it is incorrect it is consistently incorrect.

I'll share the data in the am.

By using the unbaked baking soda does this change the way the heat interacts with the baking soda and thereby reduce calcium buildup???

Regards,

Pat

 

[jdieck]

When PH increases Abiotic precipitation is more likely. As the unbaked soda will not increase the PH that will help reducing the precipitation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I may buy another model meter to test it. I don't know of anyone I can borrow from.


If it reads calibration fluids correctly, there is no need for a different meter.

 

[PatMayo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8343962#post8343962 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley



If it reads calibration fluids correctly, there is no need for a different meter.

Duh!! It was just off a pinch Randy. A little tweaking with the screwdriver did the trick. (Don't know why I didn't think of that.)

I think I am going to leave things as they are. I actually left the baked baking soda on the tank last night. But what I did do differently was I left a couple of windows open last night upstairs. This morning when I came down and checked the tank, before any lights were on, the ph was 8.14. Typically the tanks ph is 8.05 or less in the am. This morning it was much higher.

This tells me that the ph is now higher because of the windows open, but it also tells me that the ph is not a reason for the buildup on the pumps.

I'm at a loss now guys. Maybe it was simply because of lack of curculation in the sump. (That still does not answer the question of need to frequently clean the powerheads in the main tank.)

Hummmmmmmm, I'm going to see how it goes with added circulation.

Regards,

Pat

 

[jdieck]

Pat, even with lots of internal circulation in the sump you will not solve the issue of precipitation if that flow just recirculates. What you need is more water volume passing thru so the supplementation dilutes into a larger volume not the same volume just swirling around. Alternatively drip in a different area or in the main tank. Also try supplementing less, the less precipitation the more it will stay in solution the less you need to add.

 

[PatMayo]

Yes, I'm really struggling with these concepts. I actually moved the 2 part drip up to the main tank. I'm leaving the limewater drip in the sump.

I have so much coralline growth that the tank just sucks up the alk and calk. If I could get the coralline to slow down a bit it would give the tank a chance to keep some of the additives in solution. I don't know how to do that.

I'll see how this works for a few days and see if it makes a difference.

I see a lot of tanks, especially the tank of the month tanks and they just don't seem to have a lot of coralline algae growth. I can't figure out how to slow it down in my tank.


Regards,

Pat

 

[jdieck]

Lowering alkalinity and calcium would do that but you do not want that. Really what I would pursue is loosing the supplements to precipitation.

 

[PatMayo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8345804#post8345804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Lowering alkalinity and calcium would do that but you do not want that. Really what I would pursue is loosing the supplements to precipitation.

So if you were in my position what specific steps would you take to mitigate this situation, without affecting the coralline? I have moved the 2 part drip to the main tank. I added the powerheads to the sump, which may not matter anyway.

My ph meter is correct so I don't have outrageously high ph. What else can I do?

Regards,

Pat