purple firefish RIP

[lhscouchmonster]

I had a thread going on in the reef fish forum but it is starting to go off topic. I wanted to pose the question here instead since I know many of you have to gone through the same thing...

I set up a 20G QT using half tank water and half new saltwater. I matched the lower salinity from my fish store (1.15) and had the temp at 78F. I let it run for 24 hrs, then bought a purple firefish. I added a little QT tank water to his bag while it was "floating" every 5 minutes. Dumped half the water, then added more every 5 minutes. The QT has pvc for hiding, a light (which was off for 24hrs after acclimation), a heater, a net style lid, and a 30 gallon HOB filter for circulation (no media).

The firefish was breathing rapidly before, during, and after acclimation. I checked parameters 30 hrs after adding him and ammonia still looked 0 but I did a 25% water change regardless thinking something had to be off. He was still breathing rapidly after. He ate flakes pretty well right before the water change and i removed any extra flakes (he was only hanging around one half the tank). This morning he was dead.

He looked good in the store. He had been there for a few weeks. On top of the breathing, i noticed he was tilted to one side a little bit when I got him home and periodically throughout his short life. No signs of ich or parasites.

Reef shoppe keeps their tanks around 1.015 salinity. I keep my display at 1.025. Do you drip acclimate up to that salinity or do you make your QT 1.015 then slowly raise every day by .001? I made my QT 1.015 but that didnt help this lil guy.


The only thing i can think of was the QT not being cycled. I thought this wasn't necessary if you were keeping your eyes on ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. Next time I will seed some filter media first and let the tank run for week or two to verify the cycle.

 

[EllieSuz]

Really, you did everything right. Sometimes they just don't survive the trauma of being netted and moved. I'm disappointed that any LFS would keep their salinity that low. It automatically makes the transition difficult for the fish. I presume you're using a refractometer? The only thing I might have done differently would have been to put the fish in QT a little quicker. If you've matched the quarantine water to the bag water, you really only have to acclimate temperature. Once your HOB filter is loaded with "seeded" media, you'll have better luck with the next fish.

 

[lhscouchmonster]

They said they keep it that low to keep parasites an other issues subdued. :hmm1:

I am just dissapointed i guess. Im drying the tank out now. oh well...

 

[Henryz]

That sucks. Did everything u could have

 

[EllieSuz]

Subdued? That's a crock, IMO. That just means the fish will look healthy in the store and get sick in our quarantine tanks. If this sort of thing irritates you as much as it does me, I'd suggest you shop elsewhere. We are lucky to have a number of saltwater LFS's in the Rochester area.

 

[terrypercula]

Subdued? That's a crock, IMO. That just means the fish will look healthy in the store and get sick in our quarantine tanks. If this sort of thing irritates you as much as it does me, I'd suggest you shop elsewhere. We are lucky to have a number of saltwater LFS's in the Rochester area.

Agreed. I would never go there again and I'd spread the word so no one else has to go through this. Any LFS that doesn't even know what to keep salinity at is not one I'd be returning to.

 

[planedoc]

Subdued? That's a crock, IMO. That just means the fish will look healthy in the store and get sick in our quarantine tanks. If this sort of thing irritates you as much as it does me, I'd suggest you shop elsewhere. We are lucky to have a number of saltwater LFS's in the Rochester area.

+2

They are trying to save a few bucks. Just remember sometimes fish don't make it and it's not your fault.

 

[lhscouchmonster]

where do you guys get your fish in rochester?

 

[EllieSuz]

Caribbean Forest is only a mile or two from TRS, off Culver. ABC Aquariums is in Fairport. Marine Oasis is in Spencerport.

 

[MiaCoral]

Am i allowed to ask where you got the fish from that had salinity that low? Only asking so no one else runs into this issue.

 

[akitareefer]

Not everyone keeps reef tanks, some people keep FOWLRs. IMO fish are better kept at lower salinity when they are not in a reef tanks. They are healthier at lower salinities. All fish, at all the shops come in with parasites, that's why people set up quarantines. I think in this case it was no ones fault.

I think its best to go to all the shops and thoroughly examine fish and watch them feed before you decide on one. None of the stores have the recipe to make all their fish perfectly healthy 100% of the time. A good fish store will not sell you fish they might think is sick or know is recovering.... end of rant

 

[lhscouchmonster]

I don't want to mention store names because I don't want to start fights between devoted customers. I got the fish at a very popular store in the rochester area that I am sure many members frequent.

Is it possible that the lower salinity is keeping the parasites from propagating, lowering the chances that fish are infected in the first place? I looked online and it seems to be a fairly common practice.

I looked into other stores previously. One store doesn't seem to have a good variety of fish. The other store said they only feed their fish a frozen food blend so im concerned with having to switch all the fish onto pellets and flakes.

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

The main thing I see that you can do differently is to match your qt tank's sg to the new fish's. There is no reason to rush an almost 40% change when you have a couple weeks to get it done gradually. Sorry about the loss. I should also ask about the drive home; did you go anywhere leaving it in the sun or do something else? I bought a new acro back during the first hot weather in June. The store was one 50miles away, i took the slower easier more direct route, and we stopped for ice cream. At the ice cream stand, which is 10 mins from home, I realized that I nestled the bag where I always do safely in the passenger seat tight against the center console; in my Chevy truck the ac vents right through it to the back seats and was ice cold. The coral made it through but, I think I could have shocked a little passive fish.

 

[tmz]

I'm sorry for the loss.

If lower sg suppresses parasites that's a mask not a real help. It may slow their life cylce until they adjust but won't kill them.
I disagree that fish are healthier at lower sg,(even though their intenal sg is only 1.008 ) than the natural environment they along with their kidneys and salt processing organs have evolved too. There is no data of which I am aware to support that notion I suspect long term exposure to hypo salinity will lead to some atrophy in internal organs.



I doubt osmotic issues had anything to do with the firefish death in view of the process used . Because the fish had trouble breathing in the bag and early on in the tank , I suspect the fish was infested with a parasite like crypto caryon or oodinium given the rapid breathing,assuming it wasn't in the bag water for an inordinate amount of time.. There are other diseases which may have caused it but ich is often a prime suspect.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

 

[St1ckyReefer]

I think you guys should do some reaserch before jumping to conclusions

First, http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyposalinity/tp/hyposalinityhub.htm
Thats just a random site about hypo salinity. But it IS an effective parasite and ich treatment. The LFS is doing nothing but a favor for you by keeping fish more apt to ich or parasites in hypo-salinity. Would you rather they treat them with copper?

Another common myth of this hobby is that a change in salinity will hurt the fish. You can take a fish from 1.012 to 1.026, and back again. With NO adverse effects and less stress on the fish than netting them twice would cause. There are very few fish sensitive to salinity, the real reason to acclimate is temperature. Anything over a 3 degree change can really shock them

I just dont understand why people would bash a LFS for treating all their fish like possible infection carriers and staying on the safe side of things with a 100% safe and natural way of going about it
Almost all wild caught fish carry some type of parasite that needs to be delt with and most LFS just leave it to the customer


Also just a theory, but was he in the bag for a long time? Could be lack of oxygen in the bag but he should have recovered when he made it into the QT

 

[albano]

The main thing I see that you can do differently is to match your qt tank's sg to the new fish's. There is no reason to rush an almost 40% change when you have a couple weeks to get it done gradually.

??? Did you read his post?

 

[tmz]

I think you guys should do some reaserch before jumping to conclusions

First, http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyposalinity/tp/hyposalinityhub.htm
Thats just a random site about hypo salinity. But it IS an effective parasite and ich treatment. The LFS is doing nothing but a favor for you by keeping fish more apt to ich or parasites in hypo-salinity. Would you rather they treat them with copper?

Another common myth of this hobby is that a change in salinity will hurt the fish. You can take a fish from 1.012 to 1.026, and back again. With NO adverse effects and less stress on the fish than netting them twice would cause. There are very few fish sensitive to salinity, the real reason to acclimate is temperature. Anything over a 3 degree change can really shock them

I just dont understand why people would bash a LFS for treating all their fish like possible infection carriers and staying on the safe side of things with a 100% safe and natural way of going about it
Almost all wild caught fish carry some type of parasite that needs to be delt with and most LFS just leave it to the customer


Also just a theory, but was he in the bag for a long time? Could be lack of oxygen in the bag but he should have recovered when he made it into the QT

Caution . Everything in the quoted post is nonsense.

Research indeed,I agree ; do some.

Hyposalinity is usually adminsitered at 1.009sg not 1.015, Even then it works only sometimes. Cryptocaryon lives in a variety of sg envorionments it mutates genrationally and can adjust in a single genration to lower sg. A generation is about 2 to 3 weeks in duration.

Osmotic shock is not a myth it's well studied and documented. You can move a fish down in sg rapidily but not up witout rthe risk of osmotic shock.

The only myth I see around here is that post which is full of potentially harmful misinformation and a sardonic tone.

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

??? Did you read his post?

Guess not, but thanks for pointing it out

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

I think you guys should do some reaserch before jumping to conclusions

First, http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyposalinity/tp/hyposalinityhub.htm
Thats just a random site about hypo salinity. But it IS an effective parasite and ich treatment. The LFS is doing nothing but a favor for you by keeping fish more apt to ich or parasites in hypo-salinity. Would you rather they treat them with copper?

Another common myth of this hobby is that a change in salinity will hurt the fish. You can take a fish from 1.012 to 1.026, and back again. With NO adverse effects and less stress on the fish than netting them twice would cause. There are very few fish sensitive to salinity, the real reason to acclimate is temperature. Anything over a 3 degree change can really shock them

I just dont understand why people would bash a LFS for treating all their fish like possible infection carriers and staying on the safe side of things with a 100% safe and natural way of going about it
Almost all wild caught fish carry some type of parasite that needs to be delt with and most LFS just leave it to the customer


Also just a theory, but was he in the bag for a long time? Could be lack of oxygen in the bag but he should have recovered when he made it into the QT

You referance an about.com page.... Enough said. Must be the peak of summer.

 

[akitareefer]

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/1/d001p019.pdf

"The efficacy of the hyposalinity treatment lies in the fact that, when administered at the concentration, duration and frequency described in the present work, the osmotic shock destroys all the tomonts before they can complete their division process. The life cycle of Cryptocaryon im'tans can also be interrupted by trans-fers of the fish carried out with the same frequency."


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish By Terry D. Bartelme

"Hyposalinity can be employed in better acclimating recently transported fish, for quarantine, treating wounds, with antibiotics, getting fish to begin eating, conserving metabolic energy, improving growth and alleviating the effects of stress.
I am not suggesting that all marine fish be kept in hyposaline conditions indefinitely. What I am suggesting is being open to investigating the various potential applications for hyposalinity therapy." -Terry D. Bartelme

Reducing the salinity gradient between the water and the internal fluids of fish is effective in counteracting osmoregulatory dysfunction and other physiological responses to stress (Johnson & Metcalf, 1982. McDonald & Milligan, 1997.)

Martin A., Jr. Moe
"Lower salinities keep more oxygen in the water, allow the nitrifying bacteria to work more efficiently, and reduce the metabolic work load of the fish." - by lower salinity he is talking about 1.020 as opposed to 1.026

Good read on ich
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164