puzzled by outbreak of flukes

[Aquarist007]

I have been steadly stocking a 125 gal tank over the last 7 weeks with fish and corals. They all come from my supplier who is a personal friend.
All fish are treated with copper and the corals treated with coral fx
Last week without any prior indications the flukes started taking out the fish. In a matter of two days alot of stock had died.
To add I have supplied many fish and corals to other tanks in the last month--none which have flukes.
My supplier and I checked his coral tanks again with no flukes.

What puzzles me is first the outbreak of flukes and secondly how virulent it was. Previous experience I can usually detect the flukes and treat with Prazipro with little to no death.
One of the conclusions we are coming to is that this tank was infected by a third party out of treachery.

Is this possible and if it was the case what would the person have had to do to get such a strain to take over so quickly

 

[Aquarist007]

bump

 

[mcarroll]

Anything is possible, but without a suspect and motive I think unfortunately you and your supplier/friend may be grasping at thin air.

 

[snorvich]

How would/could this be done?

 

[Flippers4pups]

Only thing that comes to mind is one of the fish had a very strong strain of the flukes. Also, Is it possible that the medication was weak/weakened in some way?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Will "coral fx" kill a fish parasite, like flukes in all of its life cycle? I don't know the product, but no coral dip that I've ever heard of, will kill most fish parasites....especially in dormant stages. Introduction of many fish parasites by coral, is much more common that most hobbyists realize. That's why I QT everything wet. Copper isn't a cure for flukes either. its easy to see how flukes could have gotten into your system. IMO & IME: Praziquantel (Prazi-Pro is the best preventative for flukes, by far. Fish tank Terrorism is highly unlikely.

 

[BBraker]

Capn,

Did you get a positive ID on the flukes? Were they Neobenedenia? The timeline you mention is almost EXACTLY what it takes to start losing fish due to introduced Neobenedenia. These are egglayers and nothing seems to kill the eggs, you need to dose multiple times with prazi to (hopefully) break the life cycle. Copper (and presumably Coral FX) will have no benefit against Neo.

I'd skip the sabotage idea - all the cases I've heard about either copper or bleach was used...much easier than trying to culture a disease organism and using that.

Bill

 

[LargeAngels]

The fish probably had flukes and you just didn't see them. Flukes are virtually impossible to see unless they are on the eyes. Only real way to check for flukes is a FW dip. If you have flukes 2 or 3 consequetive treatments is needed as was stated above the medication doesn't kill the eggs so they need and get killed by the medication. All fish should really be QT'd and checked for flukes.

 

[Aquarist007]

Capn,

Did you get a positive ID on the flukes? Were they Neobenedenia? The timeline you mention is almost EXACTLY what it takes to start losing fish due to introduced Neobenedenia. These are egglayers and nothing seems to kill the eggs, you need to dose multiple times with prazi to (hopefully) break the life cycle. Copper (and presumably Coral FX) will have no benefit against Neo.

I'd skip the sabotage idea - all the cases I've heard about either copper or bleach was used...much easier than trying to culture a disease organism and using that.

Bill

Difficullt to identify flukes other then the symptoms---nercosis of the skin and cloudy eyes. This has always been my give away from ich--the cloudy eyes.

Good idea on neobenedinia----especially that this strain can be eating away at flesh in the beginning slowly enough not to create lesions in the skin

 

[Aquarist007]

How would/could this be done?

Thanks for replying Steve but not to get into details with the tank top readily acceptable someon one could have dumped a bottle fluke containing water into the tank very easily--it is in an open area of a restaraunt and when the restaurant gets busy it is wall to wall people.
The owners as to my suggestion have a canopy ordered.

However it is far fetched I admit just trying to explore all possible answers. Personally I need to know as I can make corrections in my service to my clients

 

[Aquarist007]

The fish probably had flukes and you just didn't see them. Flukes are virtually impossible to see unless they are on the eyes. Only real way to check for flukes is a FW dip. If you have flukes 2 or 3 consequetive treatments is needed as was stated above the medication doesn't kill the eggs so they need and get killed by the medication. All fish should really be QT'd and checked for flukes.

I am beginning to believe that the flukes where introduced from the most recent batch of coral I introduced---that was the last thing to be introduced
All corals are dipped in Coral fx---are eggs able to survive this treatment?

All fish are in copper for 7-10 days before I take them from my supplier. Is that not long enough to kill parasites.

 

[geaux xman]

its very possible that parasites(including ich) could make it past the 7-10 days copper treatment. thats why many do 21+ days. even tech support from Seachem will suggest 21 days. not to mention, the supplier probably was using a low dosage of copper, which requires a longer treatment period.

 

[LargeAngels]

All fish are in copper for 7-10 days before I take them from my supplier. Is that not long enough to kill parasites.

IME, and others, copper does not get rid of the flukes. 2-3 treatments of Prazipro is needed, which is why I always do Cupramine and Prazipro. If you are worried about other parasites the fish should be in copper longer than 7-10 days.

 

[snorvich]

All fish are in copper for 7-10 days before I take them from my supplier. Is that not long enough to kill parasites.

Absolutely not. Both MI and oodinium would survive that.

 

[snorvich]

Depending on the level of surety you want, fish must be in the right dosage of copper for at least one life cycle (3 weeks) which will yield a 67% certainty that MI is not present. Two life cycles will result in a 95% certainty, and for 99+% you will need three life cycles. That is not to say that people actually do that.

For oodinium, it is much more problematical.

 

[Aquarist007]

Depending on the level of surety you want, fish must be in the right dosage of copper for at least one life cycle (3 weeks) which will yield a 67% certainty that MI is not present. Two life cycles will result in a 95% certainty, and for 99+% you will need three life cycles. That is not to say that people actually do that.

For oodinium, it is much more problematical.

Thanks for the posts Steve. After re reading some articles on oodinium it does say cloudy eyes exist with the parasite.
Due to the rapid mortality rate of the fish I am starting to rethink flukes and more oodinium.

I believe Paraguard is more effective for oodinium(given the fact that I have to treat the tank at this stage)?

 

[snorvich]

Thanks for the posts Steve. After re reading some articles on oodinium it does say cloudy eyes exist with the parasite.
Due to the rapid mortality rate of the fish I am starting to rethink flukes and more oodinium.

I believe Paraguard is more effective for oodinium(given the fact that I have to treat the tank at this stage)?

Yes. (That is why your initial treatment had little/no effect) My treatment for oodinium always starts with a fresh water bath to give the fish initial relief.

 

[Aquarist007]

Yes. (That is why your initial treatment had little/no effect) My treatment for oodinium always starts with a fresh water bath to give the fish initial relief.

Since most of the fish have perished would you suggest treating the tank with paraguard before adding more fish back

 

[LargeAngels]

I wouldn't use Paraguard for Velvet. I'd use Cupramine.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I wouldn't use Paraguard for Velvet. I'd use Cupramine.

Me too; but it will kill any invert. Use a FW bath first. I have never used Paraguard, but have read several negative comments about it. Although paraguard's mfg, SeaChem, is an excellent company (IMO)---I just don't trust these products that claim to do everything, as paraguard does.