QT: preemptive treatment or the wait-and-see approach?

[Newreeflady]

I'm QTing two fish in a 20g at sg of 1.018 which is what Live Aquaria keeps the fish at. I would like to be fairly certain they are disease free before adding them to the display. I have, knock on wood, never had any parasite problems before, but I have heard that boxfish are susceptible.

1) How long would you leave the two fish in QT?

2) Would you be preemptively doing any treatment, or just a wait-and-see?

I am leaning toward 3-4 weeks of wait-and-see, that is my instinct. I don't want to stress fish or cause disease by treating for disease. Plus, the "QT" tank is a mature tank with live rock and sand, so not really ideal for disease treatment.

Thanks!

 

[jcw]

I tried the wait and see approach and got ich, twice.

 

[Newreeflady]

Oh, dear. That's discouraging. I've never QT'd my current inhabitants nor did I start with all bare rock so I can't really be sure the system is even truly "ich-free" even though I have not seen any bouts of it, which leads me to that even treating them preemptively couldn't guarantee much, really. I mean, if they seem healthy and eating and disease-free after a month then they cant be bringing any more ich in than is already in my display naturally, right? I think even after this bad experience of yours I am leaning toward just using the QT as a place to get them healthy and eating and having a better chance of tolerating stress as I don't think I can ever be sure they will not get ich. :/

 

[jcw]

Oh, dear. That's discouraging. I've never QT'd my current inhabitants nor did I start with all bare rock so I can't really be sure the system is even truly "ich-free" even though I have not seen any bouts of it, which leads me to that even treating them preemptively couldn't guarantee much, really. I mean, if they seem healthy and eating and disease-free after a month then they cant be bringing any more ich in than is already in my display naturally, right? I think even after this bad experience of yours I am leaning toward just using the QT as a place to get them healthy and eating and having a better chance of tolerating stress as I don't think I can ever be sure they will not get ich. :/

I think understanding the pros and cons of different regimes is the best you can do.

Some would agree that your plan is fine. Considering you understand the risk of ich is still there.

i did not plan to add any more fish to the display at the time of the least outbreak so I decided to leave things be. No treatment. It's been 10+ months and no deaths due to ich.

 

[tmz]

I just put up a thread on the method I like best fyi:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929

 

[EllieSuz]

I quarantine for a minimum of six weeks and observe the fish for any signs of disease and/or parasites. I've done this for all my fish except the Mandarin, which was quarantined for three or four days until I was sure it was eating frozen foods. On one occasion I had to treat for Ich and I selected copper as the method to use. So far, no signs of problems with the fish in the Display for the last five years or so.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

Well, real Qt's should be bare bottom with No rock or sand and only perhaps aquatic safe plastic objects for fish to hide in to feel comfortable. The only thing that's bad about your tank with Rock is that you can't treat in it and if any ich does surface it's ugly face, you'll need to keep that tank void of all fish life for at least a month to clear it for sure from ich.

But if you have no problems then,
Waiting things out, you "might" be ok.

Not treating when you really don't have to (no disease signs) is not a bad thing.

I also agree with the statement:
"I think understanding the pros and cons of different regimes is the best you can do."

If something seems to be working for you, who am I or anyone else to criticize.
Many of us try unorthodox regimes or still other methods that other people are in strong disagreement with. But sometimes we are ok and things can work for us in certain scenarios.

However, if you truly want to be 100% sure all ich is gone... you need to have suspected tank that may be infected with ich void of fish life for a month. & if you have a fish(s) with visible signs of ich, the best way is to either treat in a bare bottom with various parasite regimes OR attempt the "transfer method", if you can. But not everyone has enough tanks to always do that.

Those really are the best treatments above.

Except, I will admit.. I've also seen many people (even some LFS owners in their personal tanks) have fish that survive ich outbreaks with good immune systems and survive it with it eventually not returning ever again. All with just vitamin and feeding for the fish. (this doesn't really get rid of the ich. Just sometimes strengthens fish enough to keep the parasites from "hosting".) But I wouldn't always suggest doing that in every case on purpose.

Just keep in mind if allowed to "host" a fish, Ich through their life cycle- will keep multiplying and multiplying until something breaks the cycle and causes their death.

Ways of breaking it are:

1. Tank void of fish.. No host for the ich (eventual death of all ich in the tank)
2. Affected fish treated with various parasite meds (there are many) in a bare bottom QT.
3. Transfer Method. Very effective. Least stressful on fish. Con: need multiple tanks to change over.
4. Leave affected fish alone, Feed heavily, keep up water conditions good, and hope outbreak eventually goes away.
(This method has had "some" success. But it's obviously NOT fool proof and not a gauranteed cure.
As well, it's also potentially fatal for fish with lower immune systems or newer tanks less than 3 years old.)

 

[SkiFletch]

I prefer the watch and wait method for a couple simple reasons. First, meds for ich only work at a very specific point of the parasite's life cycle. If the fish is healthy and therefore the ich is laying dormant and not growing, copper wll do nothing. In building on that, copper treatment is not without risk/danger to the fishs' health in and of itself. So IMO it's not worth the risk of treatment vs the uncertainty that there is even "active" ich. Keeping healthy fish and long periods of quarantine best balances the risk/reward if you ask me.

 

[tmz]

The parasite can't lay dormant except as a cyst,for up to 72 days. In that case if the cyst hatches the med( copper ) or sometimes hyposalinity will kill it when it swims free and has to find a host fish within a day or so or starve. Tank transfer just leaves them all behind as they are only in the fish for 3 to 7 days.

The only way to rid a tank of ich once it's in it is to leave the tank without fish for 72 days( the maximum known viability for cysts,typically 6 weeks at a minimum will do it but 72 days is safer)). Fish that survive an infestation often develop a partial immunity but parasites persist without obvious symptoms as some of them find hosting spots in the softer unobserved tissues of the gills, nostirls and mouth. It may persist in a tank for years without new strains being introduced. A new fish without ich and without immunity is fresh meat and can often spark an outbreak.Treatments outside of the known effective treatments out of tank via tank transfer, copper ,formalin or sometimes hyposalinity are ineffective.
In my opinion preventative treatment for cryptocaryon irritans in quarantine is worthwhile given the prevalence of this disease in the trade. If it infests a fish in a tank ,dallying with halfsteps an in reef remedies just makes things moer painful in the long run forthe fish and the aquarist.,So it's best to get on with getting the fish out and quarantining and treating them all. It's realy nice to have atank wher you an put new specimens after quarantine with confidence that a pre existing disease in the tank won't kill them.

 

[tmz]

Should have noted cysts(portomites) don't come in with the fish. They form on surfaces , usually the bottom of the tank.

 

[SkiFletch]

So new fish can never arrive with cysts straight out of the bag? And the only time the disease lays dormant is in cyst form?

Edit for re-phrasing

 

[tmz]

Hi Mike,
The trophonts, on the fish feeding stage, stay 3 to 7 days.

They trophonts change to protomonts which leave the fish go to the bottom and crawl around for 2 to 18 hours.

The protomonts encyst to tomonts which form tomites over 2 -28 days generally with the longest time period in one study at 72 days . One tomont produces as many as two hundred + tomites.
These tomites form theronts over about 12 days.The theronts seek out a fish host and need one within 24 hours or they perish.

Copper and formalin target the free swimming stages. The parasites embedded in the fish and the cysts don't generaly die from it.

In one recent study(Dan et al 2009) one particular strain of ich was found where trophonts ,the on fish feeding stage where driven to dormancy at low temperature (53.6 degrees farenheit )for 4 to 5 months Tomonts from this strain the encysted stage also went dormant . When temperatures were raised to 80.6 farenheit they regained viability.

So I can't say never but there are thousands of strains and they mutate generationaly in as short life cycle. So finding dormancy in just one strain at temperature that low might as well be never for our purposes.

This parasite is well studied and will contiue to be a subject of scrutiny ,I expect, as it is important to control it in fish farming.So we can keep learning about it.

The scary part is the genrational mutation and the potential for resistive strains to emerge with resistance to standard medications in arelatively short period of time as has occured with hyposalinity.

Another reason to like the tank transfer method.

For example,if you acquire a fish from a tank treated with some copper but not lethal doses,a 2nd,third or fourth genration strain of ich from that coppery tank might be resitive to copper in your qt tank. there is no indication of dormancy induced by copper or formalin that I couldf ind in the litterature though.