Qt

[MCCOOL]

This thread seems to be under the false assumption that Ich is the only reason to qt fish. There are a myriad of other valid reasons to qt, including numerous other parasites that are much more deadly than Ich.

Also, if an ignorant aquarist puts a fish in a qt that's been set up for 10 minutes, I hardly see how the qt is to blame. Qt tanks need the same cycling process that any other tank goes through, I leave mine up continuously to avoid this problem.

Ich is also a very well understood parasite, if you see signs of it once, it is without a doubt, still in the tank, unless steps are taken to rid the tank of the parasite. (I'm not trying to imply that you cant have a healthy tank with Ich)

I am a firm believer in the qt process if it wasn't obvious, and after you deal with a parasite other than Ich, I'm betting you will be too. Just my opinion of course

 

[steelhead77]

If I didn't know better (and I don't really) I might think that some of the "experts" on this site were LFS owners.

Yeah...I don't know about that, but it does seem that some "experts" on this site are only considered experts because they have 12,000+ posts. Please don't mis-understand. Many here have some excellent advice, but to be so closed minded and not take the multitude of factors on individual tanks into account is, IMHO, just plain wrong. Nobody else's tank is just like mine. And my tank is not like anybody else's. What works (or doesn't) in your 40B will not be the same as in my 180. This needs to be taken into account when offering advice. What I see is that far too often, some folks here try to fit every tank into a "one size fit's all" solution and this just doesn't work in the reefing world.

 

[jcw]

Going from a 1.018 to 1.026 SG in an hour is no problem whatsoever for a fish.

This goes against many warnings I have read from articles and people much smarter than I.

I would NOT take this advice without confirmation.

From high salinity to low salinity is safe. From low to high salinity is deadly due to oxygenation problems.

 

[steelhead77]

This goes against many warnings I have read from articles and people much smarter than I.

I would NOT take this advice without confirmation.

From high salinity to low salinity is safe. From low to high salinity is deadly due to oxygenation problems.

I'm certainly not going to argue with Uncle Salty, but I try and always think about the natural world. In a tidal lagoon, or inside a barrier reef , a heavy tropical rainstorm can drop salinity pretty quickly, but it can take hours for the current or tides to bring in fresh saltwater to raise it back to normal. I think this may be the thinking behind the advice to raise SG slowly. Maybe fish can handle it better than corals can.

 

[duncantse]

Also, if an ignorant aquarist puts a fish in a qt that's been set up for 10 minutes, I hardly see how the qt is to blame. Qt tanks need the same cycling process that any other tank goes through, I leave mine up continuously to avoid this problem.

You do not have to leave your QT tank constantly. A 10 gallon fish tank can cycle in 10 minutes. Just get some filter media from established tank and add it into your qt tank.

 

[MCCOOL]

You do not have to leave your QT tank constantly. A 10 gallon fish tank can cycle in 10 minutes. Just get some filter media from established tank and add it into your qt tank.

Yes, this definitey works too, good call. It's just easy for me to leave mine up in the spare room.

Point being, the qt needs sufficient bacteria to cope with the ammonia created by the fish.

 

[puffer21]

This is deffinitly a debatable subject. However the point was that from my experiences i dont have customers who have diesease spreading in there tank when they have a healthy stable tank. QTing has its advantages and disadvantages. But when someone has one fish in there tank with ick i dont think people on here should be telling them they need to QT all of there fish or they are all going to die. I have had a customer before come and talk to me they put all there fish into a 20 gallon tank dosed it with copper and other things because someone on Reefcentral said they had to do this or there fish would die. They only had one fish with ick, and they ended up killing all the fish from QTing them. I just think we someone has an issue with fish deiease we should find out why and fix the problem instead of telling them to QT.

 

[Paul B]

Ich is also a very well understood parasite,

Not really. We think we know all about ich like we think we know about a lot of things but the truth is that we "always" think we know all there is until we learn something new.
Many people think that if they have ich in their tank it is a death sentence, and in many tanks it is. But in other tanks, it is not a problem at all and is a non issue.
Why is that? We don't really know. We know the ich life cycle, how it is affected by temperature, how copper and hypo kill it, what it likes to watch on TV but we still can't say for certain why it is not a problem in some tanks and a horror in others.
We do a lot of guessing and some of us call others of us liers, (well not out loud anyway)
I do know a few things. In a new tank it can easily kill everything in a couple of days. No doubt about that. What is a new tank? That could be 5 years old. If a tank is very sterile with meticulous cleaning, it may not harbor the necessary bacteria needed to reduce stress to the point where the fish feel comfortable. Uncomfortable in a fish is stress. Most of our fish are stressed anyway because, well, they are captive in a small glass box in a few inches of water. That is stressful no matter what we do.
Fish may and often are bullied, that is also stress. Eating foods that are not recognized or swimming alone instead of a school is also stressful. A fish has a very good immune system, it has to because it is inhaling seawater that is full of pathogens and paracites.
The seawater is actually an extension of the fishes circulatory system because the blood cells come into direct contact with the water through the gills. It is the same with us if we were to breath in bacteria viruses and paracites.
The fishes immune system will protect it from almost anything commonly in seawater and ich is very common in sea water and probably all wild fish have it. If it were not for copper, there would be no salt water fish hobby.
But the immune system of a fish does not work like ours. We can sit around eating potato chips drinking beer while watching Oprah and we will probably not get sick. Well eventually we would but not right away.
A fish is different. They were made to spawn and they spawn all the time, constantly as a matter of fact. To produce eggs a fish has to be in excellent shape because it is a huge burden on a fish to fill itself with oil filled eggs that can take up a third of the fishes weight.
In this condition (IMO) fish almost never get sick. No disease and no paracites.
Why? I don't know, but they are. How do I know? Because I know.
As I said, they need certain things to be in excellent health and flakes and pellets are not going to cut it.
I feel that it is much better to boost the fishes immune system to the point that it will fight off disease for itself than to worry about every malady that the fish comes into contact with.
We as humans inoculate ourselves with weak diseases to prevent them in the future and it works. Fish evolved with these diseases and if we keep then in perfect shape, they also will be immune to diseases.
There is nothing wrong with quaranting, if you feel it is the way to go then do it but besides that get your fish into breeding condition and they will live forever with no worry of diseases.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[puffer21]

One last bump

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

This goes against many warnings I have read from articles and people much smarter than I.

I would NOT take this advice without confirmation.

From high salinity to low salinity is safe. From low to high salinity is deadly due to oxygenation problems.

Scroll down to the Sailfin Tang response.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/fish-bio-101-a-8897.html

 

[jcw]

Scroll down to the Sailfin Tang response.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/fish-bio-101-a-8897.html

if it's posted on the internet, it has to be true?

actually, i don't see in your link where they say that going from 1.018 to 1.026 is "no problem whatsoever."



here's some internet "proof" that I came across that prompted my warning.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

When you are ready to return the system to normal salinity, simply reverse the process, remove some of the low salinity water in the aquarium and replace it with high salinity water. However, when returning the salinity to normal, it's extremely important to take your time and raise the salinity slowly and gradually. Fish can become dehydrated if the salinity is increased too rapidly, so be methodical and raise the salinity over a period of several days. In addition, the aquarium water will can hold less and less dissolved oxygen as the salinity is raised, so there is a potential for gas supersaturation to occur if the salinity is raised too quickly. Don't hesitate to take a full week or more to return the specific gravity to normal levels again in small increments.


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite. I have never experienced problems when placing fish into a hyposalinity treatment, but have routinely witnessed fish showing obvious signs of distress when brought back to normal salinity levels too quickly. For that reason, I try to limit the specific gravity increase 0.001-0.002 points per day.

Here's an article about the benefits of hyposalinity in acclimating fish. After reading this article, i'm a rather firm believer of the qt and hypo process.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish

Here's an article on the benefits of the qt process.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/3/aafeature1



To me it just makes sense. However, IMO, you have to do it right.

I DO NOT think it can be a spare tank, a heater and a floss filter. It has to be set up to manage the fish that you plan to keep. And keep for an extended period of time.

FOR ME, that means a properly sized protein skimmer for oxygenation if not filtration, a properly sized cannister filter for mechanical filtration, a UV light, and a detachable sump with cycled "cured" rock.

I think the biggest reason for losses in QT is a poor QT practice.


But in the end, it's your tank and your fish. I wouldn't stop anyone from not qt'ing. I just know what I'd do.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I am not going just on what I posted.
Over 20 years of experience has shown me that osmotic shock is not a worry with most marine fish unless you are just reckless when acclimating.
I am in no way telling anyone not to QT their fish, I am simply stating that I do not do it and have had no problems due to making wise choices when selecting new fish and having rock solid parameters in my DT.

 

[jcw]

Over 20 years of experience has shown me that osmotic shock is not a worry with most marine fish unless you are just reckless when acclimating.

Now that I would believe.


probably healthy fish have no problem making the hour-long transition in salinity.

fish with wounds that are marginal health-wise and already stressed probably suffer more. As I understand it, open wounds severely compromise a fish's ability to maintain internal sodium concentration. More energy is spent to osmoregulate and the lack of oxygenation might be a fatal thing.


Another reason to pick your fish wisely and NEVER purchase a sick fish out of pity.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Ditto.

I have done that with corals that were on their way out but would never do it with a fish.:beer: