QT'd new addition but still got Ich, talked to vet and got a drug please advice.
- Thread starter Paalk
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ThRoewer
New member
Actually 1.011 should still be effective, but you want to stay below to be on the safe side due to measurement inaccuracies and evaporation.
You also want not to go lower than 1.008 to not get into the danger zone for the fish.
1.009 is a good value.
Once set correctly it should be fairly easy to maintain as evaporation has a much lower impact on salinity changes than at normal ocean salinity.
The lower salinity is not only to kill the parasite, but also to help the fish to preserve energy and cope better with the infection. If done just to make life easier for the fish you can stay above the therapeutic maximum level of 1.011. I usually go with 1.016 as this level doesn't require a slow salinity ramp up.
You also want not to go lower than 1.008 to not get into the danger zone for the fish.
1.009 is a good value.
Once set correctly it should be fairly easy to maintain as evaporation has a much lower impact on salinity changes than at normal ocean salinity.
The lower salinity is not only to kill the parasite, but also to help the fish to preserve energy and cope better with the infection. If done just to make life easier for the fish you can stay above the therapeutic maximum level of 1.011. I usually go with 1.016 as this level doesn't require a slow salinity ramp up.
Guys, I really need your advice. I just don't get this. I have upped the dose now to 15mg/l and the fish is still getting worse. Some of them are sprinkled with spots some white and some black. One of my tangs are having some kind of sores on it's body too. And my cardinals are suffering from something which seems like a combination or fin rot, pop eye and what not. I am at a loss here, should I take the Hydroxychloroquin sulph. out and try some antibiotics(Flagyl)? Please advice, I am afraid that they are all going if I don't do something soon. I lost a clown today and one of my Pyjama Cardinals looks like he is soon going.
Update: Three of my Pajama died, that makes 4 fish including the clown only today :worried. I also have among others a large Naso Vlamingii he is my prized possession as I play with him and have a really special connection with the guy, he is 14-15" long so he is a pretty big fish and tame as my dogs
He is starting to breath rapidly and starting to develop a red line at the bottom of the fin on the back + a red sore behind his right gill where the pectoral fin starts(I think it's called pectoral fin). I am sorry if my English is sub par but Vikings don't speak English as their native tongue
I do not want to loose this guy I have had him for years and love him, please advice. I don't want to loose any fish! I am at the verge of treating the whole tank with Metronidazole as there was a guy up here in the north who told me that would end all my problems. Except he said it could kill all beneficial bacteria too, so I had to stock up with a lot of Seachem ammonia stop and an alarm? But.....I don't want to do that unless you seasoned guys could ease my mind a little regarding that and say go or not go.
Please guys advice, I am getting desperate here I've had most of these fish for almost 10 years and 7 of them are prized specimens of different tangs plus plus. I re-dosed Hydroxychloroquin sulph today with 5mg/l and put in lot of air stones in the sump plus a lot of other measures to increase O2 which I hope will ease their breathing. I have also lowered the salinity down to 1.018 for the time being and plan to lower it even more tomorrow.
Am I at the right track?
Sorry if my post is a little messed up but I am really messed up too, I feel so helpless seeing the fish struggle like this. It really BREAKS my heart.
This is painful learning, for ten years I haven't seen any disease in my DT then I did the most stupid move of all.....Introduced a Moorish Idol which had lived in a buddy's tank for two years with no problems. I thought that was quarantine enough but obviously I was painfully wrong. I hate myself for this move. Maybe I should go back to Malawi Cichlids and admit defeat hehe
He is starting to breath rapidly and starting to develop a red line at the bottom of the fin on the back + a red sore behind his right gill where the pectoral fin starts(I think it's called pectoral fin). I am sorry if my English is sub par but Vikings don't speak English as their native tongue I do not want to loose this guy I have had him for years and love him, please advice. I don't want to loose any fish! I am at the verge of treating the whole tank with Metronidazole as there was a guy up here in the north who told me that would end all my problems. Except he said it could kill all beneficial bacteria too, so I had to stock up with a lot of Seachem ammonia stop and an alarm? But.....I don't want to do that unless you seasoned guys could ease my mind a little regarding that and say go or not go. Please guys advice, I am getting desperate here I've had most of these fish for almost 10 years and 7 of them are prized specimens of different tangs plus plus. I re-dosed Hydroxychloroquin sulph today with 5mg/l and put in lot of air stones in the sump plus a lot of other measures to increase O2 which I hope will ease their breathing. I have also lowered the salinity down to 1.018 for the time being and plan to lower it even more tomorrow.
Am I at the right track?
Sorry if my post is a little messed up but I am really messed up too, I feel so helpless seeing the fish struggle like this. It really BREAKS my heart.
This is painful learning, for ten years I haven't seen any disease in my DT then I did the most stupid move of all.....Introduced a Moorish Idol which had lived in a buddy's tank for two years with no problems. I thought that was quarantine enough but obviously I was painfully wrong. I hate myself for this move. Maybe I should go back to Malawi Cichlids and admit defeat hehe
Does this mean chloroquine diphosphate degrades and needs to be redosed every 5 days? I always thought it was dose and forget
Update: Three of my Pajama died, that makes 4 fish including the clown only today :worried. I also have among others a large Naso Vlamingii he is my prized possession as I play with him and have a really special connection with the guy, he is 14-15" long so he is a pretty big fish and tame as my dogs
Please guys advice, I am getting desperate here I've had most of these fish for almost 10 years and 7 of them are prized specimens of different tangs plus plus. I re-dosed Hydroxychloroquin sulph today with 5mg/l and put in lot of air stones in the sump plus a lot of other measures to increase O2 which I hope will ease their breathing. I have also lowered the salinity down to 1.018 for the time being and plan to lower it even more tomorrow.
Am I at the right track?
Sorry if my post is a little messed up but I am really messed up too, I feel so helpless seeing the fish struggle like this. It really BREAKS my heart.
This is painful learning, for ten years I haven't seen any disease in my DT then I did the most stupid move of all.....Introduced a Moorish Idol which had lived in a buddy's tank for two years with no problems. I thought that was quarantine enough but obviously I was painfully wrong. I hate myself for this move. Maybe I should go back to Malawi Cichlids and admit defeat hehe
Your Tang's symptoms sound like septicaemia, bacterial blood poisoning. I'd suggest removing him and putting him through a course of antibiotics. Oxytetracycline, Furan 2 and Dr G antibacterial food have worked for me on separate occasions
ThRoewer
New member
I just had a similar experience with a BSJ and a bunch of barnacle blennies. I tried CP (Ick-Shield), but they only got worse and the BSJ died. I have some serious doubts that CP is an effective enough treatment against ich, especially if the fish are already weakened by other factors.
For the blennies I have now switched to hyposalinity - if it is ich it should work.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
For the blennies I have now switched to hyposalinity - if it is ich it should work.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Deinonych
New member
I agree, especially when there are much more effective treatments against ich (namely, TTM).
ThRoewer
New member
While TTM is a great preventative method for new fish and also suitable to treat single or small groups of fish, it is completely unsuited to treat large numbers of fish. He has 50 fish to treat!
I still stand by my advice to take one sick fish to the vet for a more definitive microscopic identification of the pathogen(s). With this many fish on the line I would stop the guessing game and blind trials and take a more definitive route, especially since you have already a vet to go to.
So guys a smal update and a question. I have lost 17 fish now, very sad. But, the good thing is we have a confirmed diagnosis( from vet) it is Oodinium. I have spent the last twelve hours removing fish from my DT in order to treat with copper. I did a freshwater bath 10 min for each individual and from there I moved them into a temporary holding tank. Some of my tangs are looking better now after 24 hours of copper dosing. But here is my question, I think that my Vlamingii and Desardjini have a bacterial infection too as Illumnae mentioned in an earlier post, can I treat with antibiotics at the same time as I'm treating with Cupramine? Please advice.
ThRoewer
New member
If it is Amyloodinium ocellatum I'm kind of surprised that the Chloroquine didn't show any effect.
Copper should generally not interfere with antibiotics, though a careful observation of the fish is recommended to see if they show any abnormal behavior that may indicate an adverse reaction.
Copper should generally not interfere with antibiotics, though a careful observation of the fish is recommended to see if they show any abnormal behavior that may indicate an adverse reaction.
ThRoewer, I am surprised myself as it has worked in the past. Deaths have risen to 25 as I type, and I am very sad about it. Some of these specimens have been with me for over 10 years. My Vlamingii has been with me for 12 and he doesn't look so good now with his body covered in "rusty" patches. I DON'T want to loose him. Is there anything else I could do? He stopped eating after I put him in the HT with Cupramine too, in fact nobody is eating. I am willing to to just about anything in my power regardless of cost to solve this, so if there are ANY suggestions out there I am all ears.
I picked out two more Yellow tangs and a Scopas today and my PBT doesn't look good either.
How long time should I expect in order to see any improvement from the Cupramine? They have been in there since monday. I measured copper yesterday with Seachem's kit and it read 0,3 which was fine according to Seachem's support.
Sorry if I seem kind of desperate, but I am.....very stressed out about this. I had 50 fish in this tank and now we are down to 25 in 4 days.
Please, please anybody who has any advice throw them out here :reading:
I picked out two more Yellow tangs and a Scopas today and my PBT doesn't look good either.
How long time should I expect in order to see any improvement from the Cupramine? They have been in there since monday. I measured copper yesterday with Seachem's kit and it read 0,3 which was fine according to Seachem's support.
Sorry if I seem kind of desperate, but I am.....very stressed out about this. I had 50 fish in this tank and now we are down to 25 in 4 days.
Please, please anybody who has any advice throw them out here :reading:
tassod
New member
You may want to look at this thread, perhaps it may help.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2551894
I'm real sorry about your situation and i understand how you feel as i have been through this myself. I have never tried what this link suggest to do myself but perhaps you could with the assistance of your vet. I hope for the best for you and please keep us up to date.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2551894
I'm real sorry about your situation and i understand how you feel as i have been through this myself. I have never tried what this link suggest to do myself but perhaps you could with the assistance of your vet. I hope for the best for you and please keep us up to date.
ThRoewer
New member
If you can get the medications and supplies listed in alprazo's thread I would definitely give that method a shot.
I would also lower the salinity as described in alprazo's thread as that will help the fish saving energy and increase the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water.
Not sure if it helps much, but here is a study on treating Amyloodinium:
Chemical control of Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) (Dinoflagellida) infections: In vitro tests and treatment trials with infected fishes
"Copper sulfate, in concentrations up to 10 ppm, did not interrupt division. However, concentrations as low as 0.5 ppm were lethal to sporulating tomonts and dinospores."
Meaning: cysts will be unharmed by copper doses lethal to fish. Only the free stages can be killed. Fortunately the cyst stage of A. ocellatum is short and not as variable as C. irritans.
"Effective eradication of A. ocellatum infection from Sparus aurata larvae and post-larvae in the hatchery was accomplished by continuous application of 0.75 ppm copper sulfate for up to 2 week"
Important to know is also that there are quite a few different Amyloodinium strains (if not species) that have different levels of tolerance towards copper. Some can handle up to 1.5 ppm, which is already lethal for most fish.
I would go up in the Cupramine dose to at least 0.5 ppm.
Since the feeding parasites are exposed to the tank water they should drop off quickly. If not, either the dose is not right or you got a copper tolerant strain.
Here a few more articles that may be helpful:
Getting Acquainted with Amyloodinium ocellatum
Amyloodinium ocellatum, an Important Parasite of Cultured Marine Fish
Mass mortality of hatchery-reared milkfish (Chanos chanos) and mangrove red snapper (Lutjanus argentimaculatus) caused by Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellida)
Studies on Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellata) in Mississippi Sound: natural and experimental hosts
Histone-like proteins from fish are lethal to the parasitic dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum
Host site of activity and cytological effects of histone-like proteins on the parasitic dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum
I would also lower the salinity as described in alprazo's thread as that will help the fish saving energy and increase the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water.
Not sure if it helps much, but here is a study on treating Amyloodinium:
Chemical control of Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) (Dinoflagellida) infections: In vitro tests and treatment trials with infected fishes
"Copper sulfate, in concentrations up to 10 ppm, did not interrupt division. However, concentrations as low as 0.5 ppm were lethal to sporulating tomonts and dinospores."
Meaning: cysts will be unharmed by copper doses lethal to fish. Only the free stages can be killed. Fortunately the cyst stage of A. ocellatum is short and not as variable as C. irritans.
"Effective eradication of A. ocellatum infection from Sparus aurata larvae and post-larvae in the hatchery was accomplished by continuous application of 0.75 ppm copper sulfate for up to 2 week"
Important to know is also that there are quite a few different Amyloodinium strains (if not species) that have different levels of tolerance towards copper. Some can handle up to 1.5 ppm, which is already lethal for most fish.
I would go up in the Cupramine dose to at least 0.5 ppm.
Since the feeding parasites are exposed to the tank water they should drop off quickly. If not, either the dose is not right or you got a copper tolerant strain.
Here a few more articles that may be helpful:
Getting Acquainted with Amyloodinium ocellatum
Amyloodinium ocellatum, an Important Parasite of Cultured Marine Fish
Mass mortality of hatchery-reared milkfish (Chanos chanos) and mangrove red snapper (Lutjanus argentimaculatus) caused by Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellida)
Studies on Amyloodinium ocellatum (Dinoflagellata) in Mississippi Sound: natural and experimental hosts
Histone-like proteins from fish are lethal to the parasitic dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum
Host site of activity and cytological effects of histone-like proteins on the parasitic dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum
triggreef
New member
Just to add in at this point a bit late... But the OP stated he's dosing in his display filled with a ton of live rock. I would venture that even CP will degrade in a display filled with LR. But I have no experience with CP so just throwing it out there.
So guys, here is a small update. First of all I would like to thank you for all help. I have followed most of the tips from alprazo's thread. It seems like I got some kind of control now, no more deaths the last 48 hours. I have lost 38 fish so far which is way to much.
So far my 12 year old friend the Vlamingii is still alive and so are my big Veliferum and a large Foxface, some cardinals, a chromis, one cleaner wrasse, salarias and a pair of fairy wrasse is still holding on.
I have now prepared another HT with fresh saltwater and matched all parameters so I am planning to move all fish over later today. My question is can I give the fish a Paraguard bath when I move them over? Will that help some? The reason I want to do that is that I can still see some red areas on my Vlamingii and redness at fin bases. I have been told that Paraguard have antiseptic properties and that it will give relief to secondary infections after copper treatment. Is there some truth to this? Should I do this bath between the two copper filled tanks? I am planning to keep the fish in Cupramine for another two weeks which will be a total of three weeks, that is unless I get other advice.
So guys, please advice what would you suggest I do?
So far my 12 year old friend the Vlamingii is still alive and so are my big Veliferum and a large Foxface, some cardinals, a chromis, one cleaner wrasse, salarias and a pair of fairy wrasse is still holding on.
I have now prepared another HT with fresh saltwater and matched all parameters so I am planning to move all fish over later today. My question is can I give the fish a Paraguard bath when I move them over? Will that help some? The reason I want to do that is that I can still see some red areas on my Vlamingii and redness at fin bases. I have been told that Paraguard have antiseptic properties and that it will give relief to secondary infections after copper treatment. Is there some truth to this? Should I do this bath between the two copper filled tanks? I am planning to keep the fish in Cupramine for another two weeks which will be a total of three weeks, that is unless I get other advice.
So guys, please advice what would you suggest I do?
