QT'ing Centropyge Angels

[hkarmy25]

Maybe I'll find more help if I just post in here. What are some good treatment options for cent angels? They are way too copper sensitive, and I'd like another proven method for ridding them of ich before introduction into our tanks. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated...

 

[Mr. Limpid]

Hypo the only safe way to go.

 

[HumbleFish]

Chloroquine phosphate (thread here) is a suitable replacement treatment for copper. It has been well tolerated by every angel I've used it on... But it also can be difficult to find.

Tank transfer (thread here) is another good option, especially considering Centropyge angels relatively small size. I recently did TT on both a Flameback & Eibli using just a 10 gal tank with a divider. You would need a second 10 gal tank (and all equipment) in order to keep up with sterilization in-between transfers.

 

[jfeva0049]

where can i find more info on this....i never heard of any issues with dwarf angels. i have a flame in qt right now with copper.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Angels are copper sensitive. I have a Cherub going through tank transfer and Prazi. He's got one more transfer then into the cycled QT for a month.

 

[HumbleFish]

where can i find more info on this....i never heard of any issues with dwarf angels. i have a flame in qt right now with copper.

Any fish can be copper sensitive or not - it all comes down to the individual specimen. But based upon anecdotal accounts, copper sensitivity does seem to occur more frequently with angels, lions, puffers, mandarins, etc. Knowing this doesn't mean you shouldn't treat with copper. It just means you should be more guarded with these species; by raising the copper level slowly and closely monitoring for signs of copper intolerance.

 

[snorvich]

Chloroquine phosphate (thread here) is a suitable replacement treatment for copper. It has been well tolerated by every angel I've used it on... But it also can be difficult to find.

Tank transfer (thread here) is another good option, especially considering Centropyge angels relatively small size. I recently did TT on both a Flameback & Eibli using just a 10 gal tank with a divider. You would need a second 10 gal tank (and all equipment) in order to keep up with sterilization in-between transfers.

I agree. I personally use TT and do not treat fish unless they exhibit a parasite.

 

[H.reidi.MN]

Hmm I've done 2 centropyge through 6 weeks of copper each and they were tiny little 1" buggers. Will be doing 2 more soon so i don't think they are over sensitive if you ramp extra slow. and run a lower dose longer... Also CP is another option as well as TT. Which species?

 

[hkarmy25]

Any fish can be copper sensitive or not - it all comes down to the individual specimen. But based upon anecdotal accounts, copper sensitivity does seem to occur more frequently with angels, lions, puffers, mandarins, etc. Knowing this doesn't mean you shouldn't treat with copper. It just means you should be more guarded with these species; by raising the copper level slowly and closely monitoring for signs of copper intolerance.

Yes. I've even had clownfish sensitive to copper, and they are very hardy fish.

I've used CP to QT in the past but, as stated, is hard to measure. Any suggestions to measure, or a reputable source?

Never heard of the TT method until now. Seeing as I have 2 QT tanks it wouldn't be hard. What do you use to clean after draining?

I have no problem using copper with large angels, but every cent. i've QT'ed with copper has shown sensitivity to it (potters, coral beauty, flame, halfblack, etc). All "Bread and Butter" fish. I'm down to using MB, which is more of a preventative than anything, and dyes your tank.

I always dose copper over 4 days instead of 2, so thats not the problem...

So many methods to consider, thanks for the responses everyone...

 

[Rondelet]

In my experience Dwarf Angels are relatively more sensitive to CP than copper. I've used both with a variety of Centropyge species in Q, but have put more fish through copper with a good amount of success. As was previously noted, each fish, even of the same species is different. Dosing over 4 several days is important - as is monitoring the copper concentration with an appropriated test kit. Also, I always make sure a fish is eating before beginning treatment. If you don't it's much harder to get them onto food.

One thing that I suspect may be an issue with CP is prior use. I know several of the LFS in my town use it in their retail tanks and I suspect it may have some cumulative effects with prolonged and/or chronic exposure. Then again, this may be why response to copper can be variable.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Yes. I've even had clownfish sensitive to copper, and they are very hardy fish.

I've used CP to QT in the past but, as stated, is hard to measure. Any suggestions to measure, or a reputable source?

Never heard of the TT method until now. Seeing as I have 2 QT tanks it wouldn't be hard. What do you use to clean after draining?

I have no problem using copper with large angels, but every cent. i've QT'ed with copper has shown sensitivity to it (potters, coral beauty, flame, halfblack, etc). All "Bread and Butter" fish. I'm down to using MB, which is more of a preventative than anything, and dyes your tank.

I always dose copper over 4 days instead of 2, so thats not the problem...

So many methods to consider, thanks for the responses everyone...

I use bleach and hot water but some people use vinegar and others just use hot water. Most important thing is to thoroughly rinse and dry.

 

[HumbleFish]

I've used CP to QT in the past but, as stated, is hard to measure. Any suggestions to measure, or a reputable source?

Measuring CP concentration after you dose requires a spectrophotometer, a fairly expensive piece of equipment. But you can use a $20 digital scale (see link below) to measure how much to dose.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Mg+scale

Never heard of the TT method until now. Seeing as I have 2 QT tanks it wouldn't be hard. What do you use to clean after draining?

Newsmyrna80 pretty much nailed it in the post above me. I personally use vinegar & water to clean everything, and then let it all dry for 3 full days before I re-use.

 

[jfeva0049]

Any fish can be copper sensitive or not - it all comes down to the individual specimen. But based upon anecdotal accounts, copper sensitivity does seem to occur more frequently with angels, lions, puffers, mandarins, etc. Knowing this doesn't mean you shouldn't treat with copper. It just means you should be more guarded with these species; by raising the copper level slowly and closely monitoring for signs of copper intolerance.

what would be signs of copper intolerance?? thanks.

 

[HumbleFish]

what would be signs of copper intolerance?? thanks.

The initial sign is usually appetite suppression or sometimes the fish will stop eating altogether. Sometimes this passes after a few days; sometimes it doesn't. IMO; appetite suppression you can live with, but if the fish stops eating and doesn't resume after 3 or 4 days then you need to lower the Cu level and ramp it back up once the fish resumes eating. IME; if the fish stops eating a second time, then copper just isn't for him and you need to use an alternative method (Plan B).

Other signs include lethargy, staying in one corner of the tank, heavy breathing, and laying on the bottom. The first three you can live with to an extent, but the last one means you need to lower the Cu ASAP and probably go with Plan B.

It's important to remember that copper is a poison, not an actual medication. It works because most fish are able to survive longer in it than the parasites.

 

[jfeva0049]

The initial sign is usually appetite suppression or sometimes the fish will stop eating altogether. Sometimes this passes after a few days; sometimes it doesn't. IMO; appetite suppression you can live with, but if the fish stops eating and doesn't resume after 3 or 4 days then you need to lower the Cu level and ramp it back up once the fish resumes eating. IME; if the fish stops eating a second time, then copper just isn't for him and you need to use an alternative method (Plan B).

Other signs include lethargy, staying in one corner of the tank, heavy breathing, and laying on the bottom. The first three you can live with to an extent, but the last one means you need to lower the Cu ASAP and probably go with Plan B.

It's important to remember that copper is a poison, not an actual medication. It works because most fish are able to survive longer in it than the parasites.

Ok, thank you. my flame does not show any of these signs, so thats a good thing. i also am not putting him through a high level of copper. he has not shown any signs of ich but i wanted to do a low level treatment. but because i dont see any signs, im gonna move to DT this friday. the flame would have been in QT for 3 1/2 weeks with zero signs of ich. he is eating flakes like a mad man, so i think hes ready to roll.

thanks for the info.

 

[Deinonych]

One thing that I suspect may be an issue with CP is prior use. I know several of the LFS in my town use it in their retail tanks and I suspect it may have some cumulative effects with prolonged and/or chronic exposure. Then again, this may be why response to copper can be variable.

This factor is always in the back of my mind. I hope more serious study of CP's effect on piscine biology is done at some point in the near future. It's a highly effective medication with few side effects; it would be nice to know what the limitations are. Oh, and a simple test kit would be nice, too.

 

[H.reidi.MN]

The initial sign is usually appetite suppression or sometimes the fish will stop eating altogether. Sometimes this passes after a few days; sometimes it doesn't. IMO; appetite suppression you can live with, but if the fish stops eating and doesn't resume after 3 or 4 days then you need to lower the Cu level and ramp it back up once the fish resumes eating. IME; if the fish stops eating a second time, then copper just isn't for him and you need to use an alternative method (Plan B).

Other signs include lethargy, staying in one corner of the tank, heavy breathing, and laying on the bottom. The first three you can live with to an extent, but the last one means you need to lower the Cu ASAP and probably go with Plan B.

It's important to remember that copper is a poison, not an actual medication. It works because most fish are able to survive longer in it than the parasites.

I wasn't aware plan B had other uses which involved treating fish for disease

 

[HumbleFish]

I wasn't aware plan B had other uses which involved treating fish for disease

I always have a backup plan.

 

[hkarmy25]

what would be signs of copper intolerance?? thanks.

As listed above. The angels get a wide look in their eyes (as if "asleep") and move fins in a circular motion. Almost hovering in one spot. Copper is nasty stuff, but with the right fish it gets the job done. Between CP and TT I think I have my answer. My current QT is PACKED right now, and everyone is doing great with the treatments I've used. Once they are out, I'l use suggested methods as listed above. Thanks for all the help guys and gals. My potters thanks you as well