quarantine all fish to treat for ich...mandarin included?

[MThompson]

I am not sure if the buggers are susceptible to hypo conditions while encysted on the bottom, but they should be while they are trying to get there or back. The life cycle at ~80*F (27*C) is around 4 days and longer as temp decreases, but you probably won't get them all in one shot. The best is actually several treatments (3-5) with a few days in between with normal conditions.

If the hypo doesn't work, then the same regime with formalin at ~25ppm (volume, or ~1mL/10gallon) can be used. 25 ppm would actually be .946mL/10 gal, but 1 mL is close, plus formalin can be used up by other organics in the water - which are present in our water. This also suggests that heavy skimming prior to formalin treatment would lend to a more efficient treatment. Most fish should be able to be maintained at this concentration indefinitely, so 4 days treatment, with 100% water change following should be no problem. I would still watch the fish (especially small fish) over the first two days very closely and be prepared to change the water if they start struggling.

Hope that helps.

 

[MThompson]

Marc Levenson (aka Melev) wrote in "...I'd like to buy a Mandarin!" the folowing:

These fish don't get Ich as they secrete an oily substance on their bodies. Their skin type and the oils secreted make them extremely sensitive to many medications. What may heal one species will more than likely kill a mandarin. So if your other fish develop ich, the mandarin is not to be put in to quarantine. Which is fortunate because it would starve to death if you did, assuming the medication didn't kill it first.

And Terry D. BartelmeTerry D. Bartelme writes:

...Many consider Mandarins to be difficult when it comes to treating for disease, and they already produce a thicker mucus layer than most fish, making it even more taxing for them to breathe after adding copper treatments to their water. Fortunately, Mandarins seem to be less susceptible to some common aquarium diseases than many other fish. The large amounts of body slime that they produce may play a part in resisting parasites...

Some authors such as Martin A. Moe, Jr., have said they believe there may be three or more strains or types of Cryptocaryon. This may account for the different copper levels that have been recommended for treating this parasite. Seachem claims Cupramine can be used at up to .8; although I don't feel there is a need to go that high. The recommended dosage on the bottle is .5. In my opinion, .4 seems to be high enough to successfully treat any infestation of Cryptocaryon, when I have seen this parasite appear to survive at some lower levels. While I am comfortable with using Cupramine at .4, this does not mean I recommend this level with other copper medications. Caution should be used with any copper; there is always an element of risk. Copper levels must be tested daily, and not every brand of test kit will measure Cupramine accurately.

A possible alternate treatment for Cryptocaryon has been recently gaining acceptance. This treatment consists of lowering the salinity to 1.010 over a couple of days time with multiple water changes. The salinity should be kept at this level for two or three weeks for treatment. Raise the salinity over a longer time period after completion of therapy. Apparently, Cryptocaryon tomotes fail to hatch at this salinity. I have had good success in my limited experience with this method of treatment. Mandarins are efficient osmoregulators, and continue to eat and act normally at this salinity level. However, do not risk taking the salinity below 1.010. This method can only be used in the absence of invertebrates and live rock.

Anyway, good luck with your treatments.

 

[ryanpal]

you mentioned if hypo doesn't work. now as i understand it, a fish can have ich without noticable signs. so what if i see no signs of reinfection while in the QT tank...how can i truly know if it's working or not?

i've read up on the process of how to treat ich but this still seems to be alot of theory involved as to what methods are best ...and for how many days etc etc.

 

[MThompson]

That's why I recommended the series of treatments. You can never really be 100% sure you killed all of them but if you run a series of treatments, you should be able to get all of them at some vulnerable stage.

I also found this scientific journal article by A. Colorni (1985) entitled 'Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control
measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata'. It should also shed a bit of light on the efficacy of using hyposalinity to treat Cryptocaryon. It also shows what salinities were tested and the length of treatment, and so on. (I saved a copy if the you are unable to download it)

Again, good luck. And if you do it right, the hypo should work. Even with your mandarin - as long as he is eating.

 

[ryanpal]

thanks for the article. i'm reading it now.

one question i have. if i do multiple treatments. lets say i do the hypo and then want to treat with formalin...do i increase the salinity or keep it as is?

 

[MThompson]

I would try this:

hypo (15 parts per thousand - ppt) for 3 days - unless fish look bad
-3 days at normal s/w

hypo (15ppt) for 4 days
-3days at normal s/w

hypo (15ppt) for 4 days
-3 days at normal s/w

hypo (15ppt) for 4 days
- normal s/w


If you feel you need to do formalin, I would keep the fish at normal s/w for a week or so. Then dose formalin at 25ppm (volumetrically) following the above time frames. And remember that the switch from hypo to normal should be done over ~2 days.

In Colorni's study (table 2), it was shown that at 15ppt for 48hr, the Cryptocaryon life cycle was successfully interrupted. Any treatment with a higher salinity was not successful. However, if the fish seem to handle the 15ppt well, you can try going down to 10ppt, which was successful at only 3 hr.

Does all that make sense?

 

[ryanpal]

could you elaborate in easier terms ;]

if you say 15ppt what does that translate too if i'm keeping the salinity at 1.026? lets say thats what my QT tank currenlty is. i understand you gradually drop the salinity. what does the 15ppt mean in that regards?

also it seems above you mention switching back n forth between regular salinity and hypo? 3 days hypo 3 days regular...4 days hypo 4 days regular etc etc.

when switching back n forth should i increase similar to how i'm decreasing? perhaps adding water with more salinity every few hours?

 

[MThompson]

First, I am talking about salinity, 1.026 is your measurement of specific gravity. I am not sure what you use to measure this parameter with, but most instruments will have salinity (in ppt) and specific gravity (unitless - i think).....

Using the above hydrometer, 15ppt is ~1.015 SG. I personally think that salinity is an easier concept to grasp (i.e. - 15 grams salt in 1000 grams water = 15ppt); so that is what I go by. Specific gravity is just a bit abstract for my brain...I understand it, but ppt is simpler IMO. Oh, and you should make sure that your instrument is accurate, or you at least know the degree of inaccuracy and compensate for it.

Yes, the treatment I have outlined does switch back and for from hypo to normal. I didn't mean to have the 3 and 4 days discrepancy....I would try 3 days at 15ppt/3 days 35ppt, etc. This is to help alleviate some of the stress of the fish associated with the hypo conditions - more stress = less disease resistance (but this is a whole other physiological story). If the fish looks good at 15ppt, you can try going to 10ppt, which will likely kill all th Cryptocaryon.

Now if you are going from 35ppt (1.026) to 15ppt (1.015) over 48 hrs:

35-15 = 20ppt change/48hrs = 0.42ppt/hr

I certainly would not sit there and remove a cup and add a cup every 15 minutes....I would set up a drip system, so that it drips a bit of RO (to lower salinity - s/w to raise) all the time, and pull out a bunch of water from the qt tank every few hours. Over time, the salinity will drop, but more importantly, this is not a 'drop' but a gradual, and constant gradient from one to the other. Does that make sense?

 

[Medaka]

I just get some chaeto and put it in a bowl of water and swish it around in the water to get pods off it, then pour the water into the quarantine.

 

[JustinReef]

Forget all the lowering and rasing of salinity for a few days at a time. Just treat with hypo for 6 weeks and then go back to full saltwater for another 2. The fish will be ich free and fine. If your display is fallow, your display will also be ich free. If you need to buy a small rubbermaid or tank for just the mandarin to live in during this time, do that. He can then have some LR and maybe a ball of chaeto for pods but you should get him eating frozen asap regardless. If you do this though, do not re-introduce the LR from your mandarins tank until it has been kept fallow for 6 weeks to make sure it does not have ich living on it.

There is no point in constantly raising the salinity back up just to lower it again. Just get the 6 weeks over with. I have had to do this many times and never had a fish die or come out of it with ich. Unfortunately the fish from my LFS have ich when I buy them and I have to do this each time. Hypo should not be stressful on the fish and raising it every few days will defeat the purpose.

Just remember to raise the salinity back up slowly. Like .002- .003 a day to be safe.

 

[JustinReef]

Oh and watch the PH when your doing hypo. But again, if its out of whack, raise or lower it slowly.

 

[kevin2000]

While Mandarin's tend to have a thicker slime coat which helps ward off ich .. they do get ich and more importantly they can harbor a low level of ich which means that QTing all the other fish and not the Mandarin may be for naught.

Not sure where the notion of ich free Mandarins came from .. think Melev wrote an article saying that but even he has come to the disease forum with an ich infected Mandarin.

 

[ryanpal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11977013#post11977013 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MThompson
First, I am talking about salinity, 1.026 is your measurement of specific gravity. I am not sure what you use to measure this parameter with, but most instruments will have salinity (in ppt) and specific gravity (unitless - i think).....

Using the above hydrometer, 15ppt is ~1.015 SG. I personally think that salinity is an easier concept to grasp (i.e. - 15 grams salt in 1000 grams water = 15ppt); so that is what I go by. Specific gravity is just a bit abstract for my brain...I understand it, but ppt is simpler IMO. Oh, and you should make sure that your instrument is accurate, or you at least know the degree of inaccuracy and compensate for it.

Yes, the treatment I have outlined does switch back and for from hypo to normal. I didn't mean to have the 3 and 4 days discrepancy....I would try 3 days at 15ppt/3 days 35ppt, etc. This is to help alleviate some of the stress of the fish associated with the hypo conditions - more stress = less disease resistance (but this is a whole other physiological story). If the fish looks good at 15ppt, you can try going to 10ppt, which will likely kill all th Cryptocaryon.

Now if you are going from 35ppt (1.026) to 15ppt (1.015) over 48 hrs:

35-15 = 20ppt change/48hrs = 0.42ppt/hr

I certainly would not sit there and remove a cup and add a cup every 15 minutes....I would set up a drip system, so that it drips a bit of RO (to lower salinity - s/w to raise) all the time, and pull out a bunch of water from the qt tank every few hours. Over time, the salinity will drop, but more importantly, this is not a 'drop' but a gradual, and constant gradient from one to the other. Does that make sense?

doh! ok i understand. yes im using a refractometer for salinity testing. i got it now.

the first part is trying to catch the last few fish. such a pain and magically i had them both in my home made trap, however they both escaped when closing the trap door by a pull strng. hope that wasnt my only shot or else its going to be a long day of taking out rockwork (whcih i did recently) just to catch them.

at any rate, thanks alot for your help. im hoping for the best ;]