Question about Vodka dosing

[serbusfish]

I suggest you read this entire thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2094884

And then ask whatever questions you have in there. Red Sea is very good about helping people with their product. Just a few clicks away in the same forums.

I didnt realise Red Sea replied on this forum, thanks for that

Here's what I do and it's worked quite well. Take a 1 liter container, find the cheapest vodka you can find and plain white distilled vinegar. Pour 600ml of vinegar into the 1 liter container. Pour 400 ml vodka into container. Shake, dose. You now have basically the same thing that Red Sea sells for a much higher markup. I put my mixture on a dosing pump and got my nitrates to 0 and phos to 0 as well. Now I'm backing the dose off and only dose around 18-20 ml per day into my 150 gallon tank with 30 gallon sump. Skimmate is absolutely putrid smelling and dark like coffee and I have to empty my skimmate locker about once a week and clean the cup of thick green gunk weekly as well. That's the only filtration I employ and it almost works too well. I like to have some nitrate and phos in the system to enhance coral colors.

That sounds like a neat idea, however as I mentioned I trust the Red Sea stuff more than generic Vodka, who knows what else has been put in it that could accumulate over time? Its probably fine but the Red Sea stuff is a safer bet IMO. Also the Red Sea stuff has at least 3 types of carbon if I remember correctly?

I just wrote a post about dropping from 64ppm to 8ppm in nitrates using Red Sea NOPOX,, and I had HELLLLLLLA skimmate,, I again that LFS doesn't sell vodka,, but peeps have had success with it,, however NOPOX does smell like alcohol ?!? Go figure lol

How long did it take you to see a drop in nitrates? Are your phosphates reduced by it too?

 

[jason2459]

I didnt realise Red Sea replied on this forum, thanks for that



That sounds like a neat idea, however as I mentioned I trust the Red Sea stuff more than generic Vodka, who knows what else has been put in it that could accumulate over time? Its probably fine but the Red Sea stuff is a safer bet IMO. Also the Red Sea stuff has at least 3 types of carbon if I remember correctly?



How long did it take you to see a drop in nitrates? Are your phosphates reduced by it too?

Red Sea will be helpful about their product and it should work fine.


I would also suggest reading this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=8

The break down of the carbon sources in Red Sea come down to acetic acid (vinegar) and ethanol (vodka). There is also a trace amount of methanol which is a common agent used to denature ethanol so it can't be sold for human consumption which avoids many legal restrictions to selling alcohol. And yes, there are some bacteria that can consume methanol but I would not suggest dosing methanol to a tank as it can become quite toxic. The very small amount in Red Sea's nopox is most likely safe.

I prefer the ratio that's suggested in that thread by TMZ with around 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml of vodka. I've been using that ratio for a couple months now. I was using straight vinegar for many years before that.

Post #233 in that thread has an excel spreadsheet calculator to mix up nopox's known ratio or tmz's

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23783407&postcount=233


This is also a very helpful and informative thread on organic carbon sources
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

 

[Vdubin00]

Question about Vodka dosing

Serbusfish,, it took about 3-4 weeks,, and really it all depends on your system, high nitrates could take longer, it's all about producing enough bacterial colonies to consume the nitrates at the same or above the rate at which your tank is producing them,, but no method is going to be over night,, as I'm sure you know this hobby is all about patients ,, however I've heard numberous stories of success with vodka, vinegar, sugar dosing, and I've also heard lots of success stories with reef specific supplements,, I just liked the fact that NOPOX is made for reefs ya no! Gave me that little more piece of mind ! If I were you I'd give NOPOX a shot,, and get you a GOOD test kit,, I know that's a whole other argument on it's own,, I'd vote either salifert, or Red Sea, but just know it takes time,, I actually started off with the recommend dose (10ml a day)and then after a week increased it by like 5ml (so 15ml a day) and by the third week I started dosing (20ml a day ) by the second day of doing that I noticed my tank got WICKED cloudy , all white and milky,, so I did research found out I overdosed, skidded a day dosing then cut it back down to 10ml, and the day after that the cloudy went away,, the day after that dosed 15ml, tank went cloudy again, skipped a day of dosing, dropped back to 10ml, tank still cloudy but not as much, and dosed 7ml for a day or two and cloudy went away,, and last night I tested and was at 8ppm,, if only I had tested sooner, I would've known I was dropping and wouldn't have overdosed,, I got scared of seeing the results I didn't want to know if I wasn't getting lower,,, BUT IN NO WAY AM I RECOMMENDING THAT YOU OVERDOSE YOUR TANK WHAT SO EVER FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE ON THE BOTTLE !! Don't follow my stupidity !! You'll get there with patients which ever way you choose to dose !

 

[serbusfish]

Red Sea will be helpful about their product and it should work fine.


I would also suggest reading this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=8

The break down of the carbon sources in Red Sea come down to acetic acid (vinegar) and ethanol (vodka). There is also a trace amount of methanol which is a common agent used to denature ethanol so it can't be sold for human consumption which avoids many legal restrictions to selling alcohol. And yes, there are some bacteria that can consume methanol but I would not suggest dosing methanol to a tank as it can become quite toxic. The very small amount in Red Sea's nopox is most likely safe.

I prefer the ratio that's suggested in that thread by TMZ with around 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml of vodka. I've been using that ratio for a couple months now. I was using straight vinegar for many years before that.

Post #233 in that thread has an excel spreadsheet calculator to mix up nopox's known ratio or tmz's

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23783407&postcount=233


This is also a very helpful and informative thread on organic carbon sources
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

Thanks dude I will have a look at those.

Vdubin,

I have started using the NoPox, it recommended 3ml per 100 litres and my tank is 300 litres so that would mean my starting dosage would be 9ml, but I decided to play it safe and started with a 2ml dose, however even this was too much and clouded my water so dropped it down to 1ml and the tank now remains clear. After a week I will try 2ml again and go from there.

 

[hkgar]

Red Sea will be helpful about their product and it should work fine.


I prefer the ratio that's suggested in that thread by TMZ with around 690ml of Vinegar to 310ml of vodka. I've been using that ratio for a couple months now. I was using straight vinegar for many years before that.

Did you make the switch to TMZ's formula, or slowly, over time increase the vodka portion?

I currently use all vinegar and have been considering switching to TMZ's formula.

 

[hkgar]

That sounds like a neat idea, however as I mentioned I trust the Red Sea stuff more than generic Vodka, who knows what else has been put in it that could accumulate over time? Its probably fine but the Red Sea stuff is a safer bet IMO. Also the Red Sea stuff has at least 3 types of carbon if I remember correctly?

Actually my thought is you have a more pure product with vodka. There are strict regulations regarding how it is made and what can and can not go in it.


Red Sea adds the methanol alcohol to make legal to sell to minors. That makes it "unfit" for human consumption. Think about it. Yes, there product works, but it is vodka and vinegar with menthol added in order to sell it.

 

[jason2459]

Did you make the switch to TMZ's formula, or slowly, over time increase the vodka portion?

I currently use all vinegar and have been considering switching to TMZ's formula.

I cut over cold turkey all at once.

Here's what I logged in my tank journal on where I got to the dosing amount

I made a change yesterday to my carbon dosing. Something I haven't done in years. I've been dosing ~100 ml of Vinegar every day through out the day time hours for I don't know how long. Just swap out an empty jug of vinegar with another cheap store brand white vinegar and don't even think about it. <br />
<br />
I've been following this thread for quite some time<br />
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=8

and TMZ's thread on carbon dosing<br />
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105
<br />
Bacteria has always been an interest of mine in our aquariums since starting with "bio" pellets as they were just starting to come out<br />
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1830864
<br />
Well, I was at Walgreens the other day and came across some Barton Vodka which TMZ has recommended and what he uses. Distilled and Charcoal filtered. <br />
<br />

<br />
It was just over $10 for a 1.75 L bottle. I said What The ... Heck. I calculated out and set my 1.1ml/m BRS doser to reduce the amount of vinegar added and bolus dosed some of the Vodka. Based off what TMZ doses for his system I get for my ~200g system volume: <br />
~24.9ml Vinegar<br />
~10.79ml Vodka<br />
<br />
I did that yesterday but then thought about how I have no idea exactly how much that 1.1ml/m BRS doser is dosing. So, I could figure out how much that BRS 1.1ml/m doser actually doses, bolus dose both, or just mix it all together and just dose it all together. Which is much more up my alley as I do not like dosing on a daily basis anything or feeling pressure to have to dose something manually daily. I'm much more about automation. <br />
<br />
SO, using "TMZ's recipe" I mixed the two together in a 690ml to 310ml ratio and mixed up the entire 1.75L bottle of Barton Vodka with vinegar. I have my doser set to dose ~35.69ml per day. Now if it's off it's off but in the right ratio.

And ran it by TMZ for validation.

His reply

tmz;24220652 said:


Been offline for a few days.



11 ml 80 proof vodka and 25ml 5% vinegar are the same amounts per gallon of water volume I use . The optimal amount will likely vary some from tank to tank.

FWIW, I bolus dose 30ml of vodka an 80ml of vinegar to the 650 gallon system in the am. The pH drop from the vinegar is relatively small( - .1 ) and brief 15 minutes or less at that relatively small amount(.12 ml per gallon) . If I used more vinegar I'd spread it out.

I also dose 6 ml vodka in the pm . The heterotrophic bacteria are thought to split every twelve hours or so. The pm dose is a shot at sustaining actiivity .

And if working based on what I was dosing before.

~100ml/day @ 5% = 5

Now
~36ml/day
@69% vinegar @5% = 1.242
@31% vodka @ 40% = 4.464
= 5.706

So I'm dosing slightly more carbon then I was before. Biggest difference though is the extra type of bacteria needed to break down the ethanol to acetic acid.

If it ultimately maters though I have no idea. I do know I've tried bumping up my vinegar dosing in the past and I always backed back down to ~100ml/day not because of any parameters but because of excess white bacteria growth.

 

[amcvay1979]

Homemade NoPox 100% works, no question. May as well keep it simple and DIY it and throw it on a dosing pump vs buying small bottles of Red Sea at pretty large markups. Just my $.02, I'd rather put money into tank via fish and corals vs vodka/vinegar/methanol/water

 

[junkitu]

Can you do water changes while you're ramping up the vodka dosing protocol? I just started dosing a week ago.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

[hkgar]

Yes

 

[bertoni]

I agree. If you wait for a few hours after dosing, you'll probably avoid dumping vodka down the drain.

 

[junkitu]

Do I just continue with the dosing progression or do I have to start over at .1ml/25gallons?

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[bertoni]

I'd just continue with the progression.

 

[junkitu]

I'd just continue with the progression.

Cool. Thanks.

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[coralcruze2020]

I plan to start Vodka dosing to get my nitrates down, I have worked out how much I need to add, but one thing im wondering is will I need to clean my skimmer more frequently? I have read that the skimmate will most likely be dark black rather than brown, but will there be more skimmate produced?

I dont notice that much of a difference in skimmate production. but it is darker more concentrated.

 

[coralcruze2020]

Can you do water changes while you're ramping up the vodka dosing protocol? I just started dosing a week ago.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

yes. keep up with regular maint. and water changes as needed.