Question of Balance: Nutrients in = Nutrients out
- Thread starter Subsea
- Start date
Aquarist007
New member
I agree with you totally. I haven't run gac in my system for awhile now. I keep some on hand in case of an emergency poison situation
John,
After your question on activated carbon application, I googled it. Inquiring minds want to know.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ZaO1O7fqHmW21j99Q&sig2=qoSM2o47qeUWfq934oQMvw
I found a two part series by Richard Harker on Fish Channel.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...y_CBHY2wbRSMNbIZw&sig2=Fmz4zboBlmH9C7619FlCUw
Harker in part 1, specifically narrows down organics removed to be DOC.
There are two parts to the discussion. No mention of bacteria removal comes up in any of the written literature.
There is much folklore and crowd sourcing of information on hobby forums. It is for this reason, I filter information from hobby forum threads. I do not get my technical scientific knowledge from hobby forums. I do get some practical application from hobby forum threds.
Patrick
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Aquarist007
New member
I should add that I'm in the process of building back micro organisms in my tank so I am not running carbon or uv sterilizer anymore and doing daily 2 per cent water changes.
If your not skimming then running gac would be a good idea
reefgeezer
Active member
What would drive the need for water changes were you to have more fish in your system, excess nutrients or the loss of something that needs to be replaced?
Aquarist007
New member
Fish poop. :eek2:
IMO you can balance the need for water changes with carbon dosing. Carbon dosing does increase the growth of hetertropic bacteria that process ammonia and nitrates.
As far as replacing nutrients fish don't consume more then they contribute the most to ammonia and nitrates
reefgeezer
Active member
Yea, my question was poorly stated. I meant why would having more fish necessitate water changes in the system we are discussing? If introduced slowly enough, wouldn't the biological processes catch up to the increased nutrient load?
Aquarist007
New member
Sure that's old school. Given that the bacteria are in equilibrium with the existing bioload then when a new bioload is introduced the bacteria have to reproduce their numbers to handle it. However big difference is with carbon dosing there is no limiting factors:bounce3:
reefgeezer
Active member
Are we simply talking about controlling nitrogen compounds? I thought we were talking about trying to use biological processes to control all the things for which we might normally use skimmers, GAC, GFO, & etc. IME, nitrogen compounds are easy... It's the other stuff that gets tricky.
Aquarist007
New member
I get you.. I'm going to let Patrick weigh in on this or Randy. They would know better than I .
Yes. I maintain systems with high fish load and no water change. Nutrient export is GAC and macro.
Patrick
Yes again. I do not use GFO but then again, I rely heavily on macro algae to export those other nutrients. Macro algae will deplete calcium, magnesium, sulfur and every heavy metal in the periodic table. I use a kelp concentrate from Home Depot to replace nutrients and minerals. It has everything but phosphate. Phosphate comes in with the food.
Patrick
The complex part of the balance is the sandbed. It is a deep subject and while I have used Jaubert Plenumns & mud filters, I find that shallow coarse aragonite sandbed, less than 1, more dependable with less work.
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reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks Patrick.
I have one tank, 135G lagoon with 12"sandbed to grow true marine plants. It is 3 years old. It has a moderate fish load: three tangs, a couple of damsels and twenty mollies.
Only GAC export. Obviously the sand bed is a nutrient sink. It's my intention to support extensive root system for marine plants.
Every tank has a different balance. I like it that way.
Patrick
Only GAC export. Obviously the sand bed is a nutrient sink. It's my intention to support extensive root system for marine plants.
Every tank has a different balance. I like it that way.
Patrick
Aquarist007
New member
Do the Mollie's leave the tangs alone? Some of them can be real fin nippers
Scotty,
Mollies are good dither fish and they are excellant herbivores. They are pretty defenseless against territorial marine fish. Only amongst themselves do the mollies interact. Initially when I put in a half dozen, the damsels territzed the mollies. Once I increased the school of mollies, the damsels kept it to themselves.
Fish Psychology 101.
Patrick
Mollies are good dither fish and they are excellant herbivores. They are pretty defenseless against territorial marine fish. Only amongst themselves do the mollies interact. Initially when I put in a half dozen, the damsels territzed the mollies. Once I increased the school of mollies, the damsels kept it to themselves.
Fish Psychology 101.
Patrick
Complex food webs & Multiple nutrient pathways
Complex food webs & Multiple nutrient pathways
Scotty,
When nature is involved, I see few limiting factors. While many view "old school" as limiting, I think not. The science is beginning to catch up and realize the complexities and perfection of nature.
Patrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E
This is from a recent study that is germane to the conversation if anyone cares to read more.---------
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0523143741.htm
Ed,
As a proponent of natural biological filtration, the science has finally caught up with validating Nature. In most of my efforts to provide long term success with reef and lagoon theme systems, I strive for multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs. The article which you linked is foundational in validating this principal. Previously, I needed no validation because a successful long term tank of 20+ years was my testimony of validation. The article you linked validates the science of "old school".
It is actually more relevant in my experiment on my reef tanks that are skimmerless with no water changes. By using vinegar as a carbon source, I am growing the bacteria. The skimmer crowd ask, "what are you going to do with the bacteria" with no nutrient export via skimmer or water change. The tank as a natural biological system is going to recycle nutrients in its perfect design of multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs.
Thank you for the information.
Patrick
Complex food webs & Multiple nutrient pathways
Scotty,
When nature is involved, I see few limiting factors. While many view "old school" as limiting, I think not. The science is beginning to catch up and realize the complexities and perfection of nature.
Patrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E
This is from a recent study that is germane to the conversation if anyone cares to read more.---------
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0523143741.htm
Ed,
As a proponent of natural biological filtration, the science has finally caught up with validating Nature. In most of my efforts to provide long term success with reef and lagoon theme systems, I strive for multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs. The article which you linked is foundational in validating this principal. Previously, I needed no validation because a successful long term tank of 20+ years was my testimony of validation. The article you linked validates the science of "old school".
It is actually more relevant in my experiment on my reef tanks that are skimmerless with no water changes. By using vinegar as a carbon source, I am growing the bacteria. The skimmer crowd ask, "what are you going to do with the bacteria" with no nutrient export via skimmer or water change. The tank as a natural biological system is going to recycle nutrients in its perfect design of multiple nutrient pathways and complex food webs.
Thank you for the information.
Patrick
Aquarist007
New member
Patrick
The concept that no matter how established your tank is if the bioload is increased it takes time for the bacteria to increase to restore equilibrium is what I meant by "old school " thinking
New school would be I've got plenty of live rock and the tank is established for three months I'm going to throw that 20 Lb sea bass in there. My tank can handle it" lol being a little dramatic here but no more then then the client is when I usually get the call
The concept that no matter how established your tank is if the bioload is increased it takes time for the bacteria to increase to restore equilibrium is what I meant by "old school " thinking
New school would be I've got plenty of live rock and the tank is established for three months I'm going to throw that 20 Lb sea bass in there. My tank can handle it" lol being a little dramatic here but no more then then the client is when I usually get the call
AkoAung
aka -iDestroya-
Is the Kelpman fertilizer the one you're speaking of?
Alaska by Pennington. In a discussion on another thread, it was pointed out that this was good for minor and trace mineral addition.
I made a mistake on the major nutrients wherel it showed .13 - 0 - .60. I thought it read 13% nitrogen and 60% potassium. My bad. It read .13% and .60% which would be negligible.
Patrick
