Questions on the TTM

[texdoc77]

OK I read the TTM sticky and the interesting facts sticky for C. irritans and I have a couple of questions if you will indulge me. Some are pragmatic and a few are academic, but hey that's why I love this hobby, it is beautifully chaotic and strictly scientific all at the same time.

Pragmatic

1. Can I TTM more than one fish at a time?

2. Would you recommend a specific size bucket/pail? I have a 55gal tank and appropriately sized fish (no tangs lol).

3. Would you recommend a small tank vs. bucket or pail for the ability to see into it clearly?

4. Is anything more needed than a simple light and heater for these tanks?

5. Would it make any sense to take the fish out of my DT and run them through a TTM cycle if I have observed them for several months without signs or symptoms? My assumption is no, but that's why I'm asking.

6. Could I leave the colander in the bottom of the tank and match its circumference to the bucket or pail to optimize pulling the fish out and reduce the stress of the "catching" process?

Academic

1. I saw where it said the TTM was used primarily to prevent the development of the tomont on substrate, however, given the life cycle and timing I read it looks like the real goal is to prevent the tomont from ultimate theront release? Am I missing something, I figured the cleaning and drying was to kill the tomonts, but I am a visual learner and may need to see this in a textbook...

2. I did not see it explicitly but does the theront become the trophont once it infects the fish?

3. Could the scientific community at large come up with a more confusing naming system for the life cycle of this particular protozoa?



Thanks in advance gang, really really surprised more people do not utilize this simple and evidently HIGHLY effective method.

SC

 

[rssjsb]

OK I read the TTM sticky and the interesting facts sticky for C. irritans and I have a couple of questions if you will indulge me. Some are pragmatic and a few are academic, but hey that's why I love this hobby, it is beautifully chaotic and strictly scientific all at the same time.

Pragmatic

1. Can I TTM more than one fish at a time? Yes, as long as the tank you're you're not crowding/producing too much waste.

2. Would you recommend a specific size bucket/pail? I have a 55gal tank and appropriately sized fish (no tangs lol). Depends on how many/what types of fish. I'm currently doing this with five small fish - two harlequin files, two clowns, and a golden angel - in 20 gallons. I could probably have used a ten, but I had the 20s around. If you're just doing one or two peaceful fish, you could use a 5-gallon bucket.

3. Would you recommend a small tank vs. bucket or pail for the ability to see into it clearly? I prefer to be able to see the fish and I like using an ammonia badge that sticks on the side. However, I don't think it is crucial as long as you're staying on top of the situation.

4. Is anything more needed than a simple light and heater for these tanks? I use a small powerhead for circulation. Some use airstones, too. You don't really need a light as long as the room light is enough to allow you to see the fish.

5. Would it make any sense to take the fish out of my DT and run them through a TTM cycle if I have observed them for several months without signs or symptoms? My assumption is no, but that's why I'm asking. If you have reason to believe that the DT was ever exposed to ich and you want to get rid of it, then yes. Otherwise, I don't think so.

6. Could I leave the colander in the bottom of the tank and match its circumference to the bucket or pail to optimize pulling the fish out and reduce the stress of the "catching" process? You could do that as long as you thoroughly clean it between transfers. I use a small rectangular tupperware-type container to catch them, and it's not a problem.I also put PVC pipes in the tank because the angel likes them and it makes it easier to pull him out when he hides in there.

1. I saw where it said the TTM was used primarily to prevent the development of the tomont on substrate, however, given the life cycle and timing I read it looks like the real goal is to prevent the tomont from ultimate theront release? Am I missing something, I figured the cleaning and drying was to kill the tomonts, but I am a visual learner and may need to see this in a textbook...[I don't have a literature cite, TTM does not prevent attachment of the torments. It outruns the hatching of the daughter. I guess technically it does prevent the hatch since you're destroying them by draining, cleaning, drying the tank between transfers.

2. I did not see it explicitly but does the theront become the trophont once it infects the fish?That sounds right, but for some reason, I have a total mental block on the correct terminology for each of the stages.

3. Could the scientific community at large come up with a more confusing naming system for the life cycle of this particular protozoa?


Thanks in advance gang, really really surprised more people do not utilize this simple and evidently HIGHLY effective method.

SC

 

[snorvich]

In effect tank transfer interrupts the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans by removing the obligate host after the beginning of the progression through the life cycle. Since the front end is highly deterministic, the time frames are fairly precise.

As far as naming conventions are concerned, yes they could be a bit easier on the brain.

 

[Deinonych]

Here's a great article that summarizes everything you need to know about Cryptocaryon irritans: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

Answers to your academic questions inline below.

Academic

1. I saw where it said the TTM was used primarily to prevent the development of the tomont on substrate, however, given the life cycle and timing I read it looks like the real goal is to prevent the tomont from ultimate theront release? Am I missing something, I figured the cleaning and drying was to kill the tomonts, but I am a visual learner and may need to see this in a textbook... Yes, the ultimate goal is to completely remove the infective theront stage from the equation. TTM does this by both preventing tomont formation and excystment by removing the fish host within 72 hours (the minimum period for trophonts to drop off and begin forming tomonts). Drying for 24 hours will kill all life stages.

2. I did not see it explicitly but does the theront become the trophont once it infects the fish? Yes.

3. Could the scientific community at large come up with a more confusing naming system for the life cycle of this particular protozoa? Possibly.



Thanks in advance gang, really really surprised more people do not utilize this simple and evidently HIGHLY effective method. I am too, but some people seem to view the process as being stressful to fish, when in fact it is the exact opposite. Even "sensitive" fish tolerate the process well since the only potential stress is during capture and transfer (acute stress) vs. being subjected to potentially toxic chemicals like copper (chronic stress). Ammonia is not a factor as long as your bioload isn't too high (1-2 fish at a time is just fine).

SC

 

[rssjsb]

I actually do understand why people resist this method. It's work and it's new.

When I started, I viewed everything I did as an opportunity to screw something up. And every "transaction" seemed fraught with risk. The idea of having all these tanks or buckets being filled, cleaned, ad refilled, moving fish from place to place would have kind of freaked me out.

Now, over a decade later, I'm far less skittish about handling fish and I have more context for analyzing the alternatives. I understand that the uncertainty and risks of using medications are also difficult to navigate and that ignoring a problem is a sure-fire way to get into trouble.

So now I QT religiously and I've incorporated TTM into my routine. Can't say I'm not nervous sometimes about changing my routine, but I've got a more thorough understanding of the benefits and consequences as compared to other alternatives.

 

[texdoc77]

I actually do understand why people resist this method. It's work and it's new.

No, I understand too, I guess what I am referring to is how there are so many threads that lament how to get rid of ich, and dosing this and catching that. In my mind it is actually less work overall. The way I see it, I really enjoy this, but if my tank crashed it might be difficult to find the gumption to rebuild, so I try to avoid that...

 

[rssjsb]

No, I understand too, I guess what I am referring to is how there are so many threads that lament how to get rid of ich, and dosing this and catching that. In my mind it is actually less work overall. The way I see it, I really enjoy this, but if my tank crashed it might be difficult to find the gumption to rebuild, so I try to avoid that...

No kidding.

 

[Perth_reefer]

No, I understand too, I guess what I am referring to is how there are so many threads that lament how to get rid of ich, and dosing this and catching that. In my mind it is actually less work overall. The way I see it, I really enjoy this, but if my tank crashed it might be difficult to find the gumption to rebuild, so I try to avoid that...

The thing I find is that the default response when someone mentions they have ich is TTM and 72 days fallow without considering individual situations. If you had a 300g fully stocked SPS reef and ich got into your tank, would you rip your whole reef apart, stressing out corals and already sick fish? Also IME some sensitive fish do not react well to being constantly moved and handled, I did TTM with a group of fish and a hippo tang did not react well to being moved every 2-3 days, I had to treat it with copper in the end.
There's a great thread on here about someone with a fully stocked reef tank who has had ich in their tank for over 10 years but hasn't lost a fish in that time, although ich is present he hasn't had an outbreak for years and the fish look fat and healthy in the photos, now this isn't ideal, obviously you'd rather not have ich there but it goes back to my question about tearing apart an established reef.
It was actually recommended to him not to do TTM by an experienced reefer from here due to the number of large fish involved. As I say, every situation is different.

 

[texdoc77]

As I say, every situation is different.

Yes and no. My point is that TTM from the get go is much better than dealing with it after the fact, and you make my point beautifully with the discussion of the reefer that literally has to "live" with ich in the tank. Also that is an extreme situation with unusual and seemingly very lucky results. So "yes" each situation is different after the fact, but before each fish is introduced each situation is essentially the same.

 

[snorvich]

Yes and no. My point is that TTM from the get go is much better than dealing with it after the fact, and you make my point beautifully with the discussion of the reefer that literally has to "live" with ich in the tank. Also that is an extreme situation with unusual and seemingly very lucky results. So "yes" each situation is different after the fact, but before each fish is introduced each situation is essentially the same.

I agree. Ken has been a naysayer about TTM based on his experience. I have been using TTM for quite a long time; piece of cake.

 

[ThRoewer]

The only thing I would strongly recommend is to have 4 sets of everything that goes into the tanks, including the tanks. Most important would this be with pumps and heaters that tend to have small crevices or seams where moisture can stay trapped for days.
There are a few reports of failed TTM out here and the most likely reason is failure to clean properly or cysts surviving in a hidden wet spot. With 4 sets you don't have to rely on proper cleaning during TTM which greatly reduces the risk of failure.

 

[snorvich]

The only thing I would strongly recommend is to have 4 sets of everything that goes into the tanks, including the tanks. Most important would this be with pumps and heaters that tend to have small crevices or seams where moisture can stay trapped for days.
There are a few reports of failed TTM out here and the most likely reason is failure to clean properly or cysts surviving in a hidden wet spot. With 4 sets you don't have to rely on proper cleaning during TTM which greatly reduces the risk of failure.

An excellent idea. I use three sets.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I agree. Ken has been a naysayer about TTM based on his experience. I have been using TTM for quite a long time; piece of cake.

I actually use TTM on a regular basis. My point is that it is very easy for people to sit behind their computers and give generic advice to everyone based on what they do in their tank. 'you MUST go 72 days fallow and use TTM' without actually considering the individual requirements of that particular tank.
People on here state that these things are foolproof, IMO they are not 100%, nothing is....You yourself Steve have stated that it is possible that fish can be carriers of ich making the process of ich elimination extremely difficult.
I agree on using TTM on new additions to the tank for the most part, I have found that this process is harder on more sensitive species and as such hypo or copper could be better alternatives, TTM is not the be all and end all.

 

[snorvich]

Even fish that are carriers of TTM would be "cleansed" using TTM. They simply would not display physical symptoms (for about six months while their immunity lasts)

 

[julie180]

There is some excellent information here already, but I want to address 5 & 6

5. If you think your DT is infected, then tanking out fish for TTM would only be effective if you got them all and left tank fallow for the recommended 72 days.

6. My thought on leaving the colander in the "tank" it would be a place for the stage that falls off (sorry, don't remember name) to attach and it would be very possible to transfer them into the next tank.

 

[snorvich]

There is some excellent information here already, but I want to address 5 & 6

5. If you think your DT is infected, then tanking out fish for TTM would only be effective if you got them all and left tank fallow for the recommended 72 days.

6. My thought on leaving the colander in the "tank" it would be a place for the stage that falls off (sorry, don't remember name) to attach and it would be very possible to transfer them into the next tank.

Both are correct.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Even fish that are carriers of TTM would be "cleansed" using TTM. They simply would not display physical symptoms (for about six months while their immunity lasts)

By cleansed do you mean completely rid of ich? Does the immunity extend to every strain of ich or just the strain they were first exposed to?

 

[texdoc77]

Yes, with a small pail or tank it should not be too hard to catch the fish. I was just hoping to decrease the "catching" stress for the fish.

kenpau
Now that I see you are in Australia, I have no choice but to read all your posts with an Australian accent, lol. And also thanks for your view on the TTM. Of course nothing is foolproof, but it does have a good rate of prevention and when appropriate a good rate of cure.

 

[snorvich]

By cleansed do you mean completely rid of ich? Does the immunity extend to every strain of ich or just the strain they were first exposed to?

Yes. Completely rid of ich. Immunity pertains to the strain of ich that caused the immunity at the very least. However TTM is independent of strain or whether or not the fish is currently enjoying immunity. The life cycle goes on until interrupted by inability to find an obligate fish host.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Of course nothing is foolproof, but it does have a good rate of prevention and when appropriate a good rate of cure.

I'm not denying that at all, it is my preferred method for most new fish, my purple tang has just been through it with no problems.

Now that I see you are in Australia, I have no choice but to read all your posts with an Australian accent, lol.

Onya mate!