Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it!

[Fuzms]

I hope this is on topic here.

I have been trying to use vinegar dosing as a way to lower my nitrates, but so far (since early November) it hasn't appeared to make much of a difference.

I have 2 tanks using a single sump. about 200g total water volume. I have a large skimmer (curve 9). And a dosing pump. about 2"-2.5" sand beds in each tank. Well over 200lbs of rock in the system. Nitrates hover around 40ppm

I am currently adding about 84ml of vinegar a day.

I can only think of 2 possible problems. 1: I don't have enough anaerobic zone for the bacteria or 2: not enough phosphates.

any suggestions on where to start troubleshooting? or am I expecting results too soon?

 

[bertoni]

The bacteria that consume the vinegar do so in aerobic zones. The tank might not have enough phosphate, at least in theory. Have you measured the level recently? Three months seems long enough that you might expect some results, but I'm not completely sure. People seem to have widely varying experiences.

 

[SpSChief85]

So say I had a bacterial bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and not having any phosphate is my limiting factor... how would you go about putting small amounts back into the system? Egg crate in the sump?

 

[bertoni]

I am not sure what you mean. You can dose phosphate as some form of sodium phosphate, but I'm not sure why you would want to provide food to a bacterial bloom. What do you mean by "limiting factor"?

 

[taricha]

So say I had a bacterial bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and not having any phosphate is my limiting factor... how would you go about putting small amounts back into the system? Egg crate in the sump?

Not sure what you're getting at, "bloom" usually means massive unchecked growth. Dosing aims for steady, controlled bacterial growth.
As for the other part...
Think about CNP ratios. I would just shift to a cheap flake food that has fish meal as first ingredient and therefore higher P proportionally. You don't have to add pure P. Just proportionally more than N.

I did the inverse (low P foods) because I always had 0 nitrates, and couldn't drop P. It was working, GHA disappeared, then I got dinoflagellates. So maybe don't take my advice.

 

[Wally.B]

It me again. I have one more question.

I've been taking the Vinegar Ramp Up table a bit slower than charted. Which I assume is fine. Too fast is bad.

I'm up to 15ml a day of Vinegar on this 65 SPS only tank.

QUESTION. It is ok to just add the 15ml, like I do ALL AT ONCE at night.

I have the dosing pump, but haven't had time to set it up, to spread the dosing across small amounts over time.

 

[Wally.B]

It's me again. I have one more question.

I've been taking the Vinegar Ramp Up table a bit slower than charted. Which I assume is fine. Too fast is bad.

I'm up to 15ml a day of Vinegar on this 65 SPS only tank.

I have the dosing pump, but haven't had time to set it up, to spread the dosing in small amounts over time.

QUESTION. It is ok to just add the 15ml, like I do ALL AT ONCE at night.

 

[tmz]

The heterotrophic bacteria are faculatative; they take free oxygen preferentially but also take oxygen from nitrate when it's used up in hypoxic areas which can be as shallow as the bacterial mulm itself. Some times , with overdosing organic carbon the bacteria can use up all of the free oxygen and exhaust the oxygen from nitrate too creating an anoxic areas with excess organic carbon for sufate reducing bactiera which take oxygen from SO4 and produce sufides and toxic hydrogen sufide.
In areas with less free oxygen ( low flow areas) more nitrate will be used in anerobic activity as the oxygen is taken leaving N ,some of which is assimilated and some of which forms N2, nitrogen gas which bubbles out of the tank.

While the bacteria will take ammonia for N preferentially via a one step aerobic process outcompeting the ammonia oxidizing bacteria that produce nitrate thus keeping nitrate low , it often takes more time,months in some cases for them to get at existing nitrate.

The heterotrophic bacteria are also benthic and need surface areas to colonize like sand and/or live rock, reactors with media for bacteria to grow on even spent GAC seems to workand some note a temporty rise in PO4 and nitrate when media is changed , and some of the bacteria in play go with it. So, I think extra surface area including porous materials are generally a plus with caution to avoid overdosing organic C which can lead to anoxia in some of the low flow areas.

They also seem to have some planktonic life in the water column and can likely colonize particlualte organics contributing to a bloom.

It takes time and controlled dosing to get it all balanced. For me reducing high nitrate before starting organic carbon dosing makes it easier to find a maitnenace dose for a specific aquarium with a lower risk of overdosing.

They consume nutrients like PO4, nitrogen, organic carbon, potassium and iron as they grow. Defficiencies in one of more of these nutrients are possible but unlikely in a fed tank,IME.

 

[tmz]

It's best to dose vinegar slowly during the photosynthetic period as it it adds a lot of CO2 initially. 15 ml for 65 gallons will drop the pH noticeably when you first dose it . I see a drop of .1 to .2 with half that amount per gallon when dosed at once even during the day. Vodka can be dosed at once without a precipitous downward pH spike. Either or both will lower pH a bit over the long run but the CO2 addition is slower with the vodka ethanol as it requires oxidation to acetic acid which spreads it out.

 

[Wally.B]

Thanks for above 2 posts.

I am stopping my Vinegar dosing based on my conditions.

The reason for my vinegar dosing was that I was coming out of a major GHA bloom. I scrubbed the tank, and wanted a fresh start with all possible GHA mitigations. So far GHA is very much under control and only a few spots coming back where I didn't scrub under corals.

- I added a Algae Scrubber (which is giving me a good harvest weekly)
- I added a BioFilter Media [MarinePure Ceramic Balls] (and Dosing ZeoBak Bacteria Daily)
- I also turned back on my GFO reactor

- And I was on a journey to slowly ramp up Vinegar dosing.

However reading above posts it appears to me that a Tank can be depleted of Oxygen (my risk should be low),
BUT I also read that solid levels of Nitrate are needed to feed the bacterial.
Possibly a higer P04 reading too.

My current NITRATE=2.5ppm and my PO4=0.03

My fish load is quite small for this 65 Gallon tank (Large Yellow Tang, Madarin, Small Spotbreast Angel, medium Blue/Green Chromis and a Gramma )

So I think I don't really need Vinegar dosing at this point. Correct?

 

[bertoni]

I suspect that the tank will be fine without vinegar, but every tank is different. Also, the amount of live rock is important.

 

[tmz]

Many tanks run without carbon dosing but the bacteria you are adding do likely need some organic carbon;whether your tank has enough C to sustain them is unknown.. Many tanks run without bacterial supplements too.

 

[Wally.B]

Many tanks run without carbon dosing but the bacteria you are adding do likely need some organic carbon;whether your tank has enough C to sustain them is unknown.. Many tanks run without bacterial supplements too.

I was thinking about that, so am I trying AquaForest ProBiotic Salt. Also switching over to their Bacteria since my ZeoBak 10ml is just about out.

 

[tmz]

I don't use any bacterial supplements in tanks with or without carbon dosing.

 

[Wally.B]

I don't use any bacterial supplements in tanks with or without carbon dosing.

Neither have I for over a decade.

But this 1 year old SPS tank had a really Bad run with Cyano, followed by a GHA Algae bloom that was insane. So just wanted to do anything possible to avoid that GHA again.

I also ran out of my Tropic Marin Pro which I have always used...., and for one bucket decided to try the newly available AquaForest Proboitic salt. Figured the complimentary bacteria dosing is all I would do in their system.

Since this thread is about Carbon Dosing and bacteria. Can anyone explain what biotic salts are all about? (Even Tropic Marin has a Bio-Actif Salt). I figure the salt can't possibly have bacteria since bacteria to my limited knowledge doesn't survive in a dry medium. The bio-salts must have a food substance like Carbon to support bacteria. (Even in the manual they highly discourage Carbon dosing when using their bio salt)

 

[taricha]

I figure the salt can't possibly have bacteria since bacteria to my limited knowledge doesn't survive in a dry medium. The bio-salts must have a food substance like Carbon to support bacteria. (Even in the manual they highly discourage Carbon dosing when using their bio salt)

You'd think that, but one of the things in the advanced aquarist - bacteria in reef tanks article was that water mixed from a salt that was actual dehydrated sea water had a couple of orders of magnitude more bacteria than water made from salt mixes that were manufactured in other ways.

 

[Wally.B]

You'd think that, but one of the things in the advanced aquarist - bacteria in reef tanks article was that water mixed from a salt that was actual dehydrated sea water had a couple of orders of magnitude more bacteria than water made from salt mixes that were manufactured in other ways.

I still think bacteria dies when totally dehydrated since Life cannot be sustained without water. The Sea Salt might just have more bacterial supporting content in it to support better bacteria growth from seeded bacteria in those comparison tanks. Thus biotic salts are manufactured salts closer to those Sea Water Salts. (Again, I'm not expert, just deducing this from logic). However I always wonder how brine shrimp eggs which are totally dehydrated trigger their "come to life" when salt water, heat and oxygen is added. I read that these brine shrimp eggs can be dormant for hundreds or a thousand years, and still come to life. Dry Bacteria might be the same.

 

[bertoni]

The bacteria indeed might survive in some sort of spore form, but I agree that the salt products might vary in their capacity to support bacteria. I don't know of a good way to be sure, and I don't think it matters much. Any such effect is going to be very short-lived.

I think the "biotic" salts just have some organics in them. The only likely problem is that such salt products might require aeration for a while when stored, so that the organics don't decay and cause the water to become anoxic.

 

[tmz]

Tropic Marin
asserts their bio actif salt contains biopolymers(unspecified) ; Polymers contain organic carbon; there is no mention or suggeston of bacteria.

 

[filbie70]

Mangroves for cyanobacteria, cheato for phosphate, and vinegar for nitrates

Mangroves for cyanobacteria, cheato for phosphate, and vinegar for nitrates

I'm glad to see this thread still going after 6 years. I am using mangroves for my cyanobacteria, cheato for my phosphate reduce, and just started using vinegar for nitrate redux. I have been between 20-40 ppm on nitrates. I debated using biopellets but the more i read they seem to be pushed more by the manufacurers and the blogs I've seen have eventually resulted in cyanobacteria outbreaks. So, I decided to go with vinegar based on my readings.

I started adding vinegar to my lime water. I use 1 tsp per gallon (5 gallon reservoir) of the brs kalkwasser and added 30 ml of 5% vinegar. I use a Kessil tuna sun at night to grow my macro in the sump at night and dose around the clock as my oxygen is generated in the display during the day and the sump at night, in theory any way. I want to keep the nitrates around 10 ppm as I have a mixed reef and acros that have been doing fine even at 20 ppm, I've done water changes when it gets to 40. Any words of advice on the setup? I'll keep everyone posted if I encounter anything strange. My biggest hope is to kill off some of the xenia that came with my original liverock with the lower nitrates. But, I'm concerned about the hammers, frog spawn, and duncan that I have. Any thoughts/comments are appreciated.

I love this hobby :headwalls: