Rare lionfish or what?
- Thread starter StephLionfish
- Start date
Mental1
New member
Sorry to hear
Yea -- you guys all know exactly how I am feeling right now. :thumbdown
namxas
Things With Stings R Us!
ARGH!!! Sorry Sherri.
I do hate to bring this up, and I know I've mentioned this issue here and on several other froums, but I think we're all missing the boat with drip acclimation. Once those shipping bags are opened, the pH takes a jump up due to available atmospheric O2. This causes the accumulated NH3 to become much more toxic, and it begins burning the fish's gill structures (the fact that your fish was gilling supports this).
As for temp matching, studies have shown that a fish doesn't truly acclimate to temp for a couple of days to a week, so there's nothing to be done there. I can't lay my hands on the study, but I know Renee can cuz she's really geeky with the journals and papers.
We've finding salinities as high a 1.030 in shipping water from one popular etailer, which we assume is an effort to insure that the "new" salinity will be lower rather than the fish taking a jump up. However, if the seller is keeping fish at a lower salinity (1.020 or so), the fish may take an osmotic hit.
We open the bag, do a quick SG assessment and get the fish into the QT immediately, and have had really good results.
I know you've probably seen this pic before, but these are the NH3 test results for shipping water and tank water (we have performed this test at least 10 times with different shipments and they are all the same):
Again, we're SO sorry you lost the fish...
I do hate to bring this up, and I know I've mentioned this issue here and on several other froums, but I think we're all missing the boat with drip acclimation. Once those shipping bags are opened, the pH takes a jump up due to available atmospheric O2. This causes the accumulated NH3 to become much more toxic, and it begins burning the fish's gill structures (the fact that your fish was gilling supports this).
As for temp matching, studies have shown that a fish doesn't truly acclimate to temp for a couple of days to a week, so there's nothing to be done there. I can't lay my hands on the study, but I know Renee can cuz she's really geeky with the journals and papers.
We've finding salinities as high a 1.030 in shipping water from one popular etailer, which we assume is an effort to insure that the "new" salinity will be lower rather than the fish taking a jump up. However, if the seller is keeping fish at a lower salinity (1.020 or so), the fish may take an osmotic hit.
We open the bag, do a quick SG assessment and get the fish into the QT immediately, and have had really good results.
I know you've probably seen this pic before, but these are the NH3 test results for shipping water and tank water (we have performed this test at least 10 times with different shipments and they are all the same):
Again, we're SO sorry you lost the fish...
seahorsedreams
New member
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear this. The lion honestly looked rough before it even came to you. I said to Greg it had the look of a scopas tang.... ya know, kind of rough and beat up. That, plus the shipping, was just too much for him.
Hopefully someone can do something with the DNA.
Hopefully someone can do something with the DNA.
Mental1
New member
Thanks Renee ... makes me feel a bit better. I know you know fishies. I asked BZ if they knew of someone that wanted to do some research on him and they said they might have interested people but they want to see a picture first.
They said he was eating the dried BZ feed which was surprising to me. I wish he had done okay but it was not to be I guess. Also, if he was indeed antennata I guess they don't ship well anyway. I did not even see that all he had was an arrive live guarantee only -- I got taken with his uniqueness. In retrospect, I guess his colors weren't that vibrant. A couple of his fins were damaged too along the way. I live out in the woods so he did not even get delivered until 11:45 AM.
They said he was eating the dried BZ feed which was surprising to me. I wish he had done okay but it was not to be I guess. Also, if he was indeed antennata I guess they don't ship well anyway. I did not even see that all he had was an arrive live guarantee only -- I got taken with his uniqueness. In retrospect, I guess his colors weren't that vibrant. A couple of his fins were damaged too along the way. I live out in the woods so he did not even get delivered until 11:45 AM.
Mental1
New member
Greg -- I do know the whole shipping water challenge but the other thing I worry about with throwing them into the tank immediately is the pH differences. My pH is up around 8.3 at times so that worries me especially because the pH in the bag drops. I have done it all ways and each way seems to have a downside. I did it with an angel and he still swims funny and I believe that was due to pH differences. I know they can get over pH poisoning but they can also have permanent damage. Since it was a new supplier for me I felt it best to follow their acclimation procedures in case something happens. Dumb me did not see that it was only an arrive alive guarantee. Otherwise I probably would have just put him in fast. I know that is what happened -- breaks my heart. Shoulda coulda saved him from a miserable death. My heart aches ...
Mental1
New member
In thinking about it -- I handle each fish differently in terms of acclimation. If the water in the bag smells really bad and there's a lot of poo -- I get them out quickly. The water did not smell bad and there wasn't a lot of poo -- so that says to me that my previous criteria did not work in this case. The 3 fish I bought that day from a LFS were in bags for 2.5 hours and I drip acclimated for 20 minutes -- all are fine. I think that I am going to end up where you are though and just check salinity on shipped animals and if it's not a big difference -- out of the bag they come. But what do you do if there is a big difference in salinity? How long does it take for the ammonia to get toxic? I suppose that varies by the fish too.
Anybody have a time machine?
Anybody have a time machine?
seahorsedreams
New member
It takes awhile to acclimate a fish to a higher salinity, longer than is practical or safe for a drip acclimation.... days. I don't acclimate at all to a lower.
I adjust the display/QT to whatever the shipping water is unless the shipping water is lower. So, the shipping water is 1.030, the fish can go right into the tank of 1.023. If the shipping water is 1.019, I adjust the display down to that and raise it up slowly over days.
I acclimate anything from the LFS, they don't have any of the ammonia issues. I've tested a good 30+ bags from all different sources. The only ones that show up with ammonia was the overnighters. The other option would be to maybe use an ammonia blocker if you want to go with the longer drip acclimation.
The effects of the pH on ammonia is immediate.
But I don't think it would have made a difference, he really didn't look healthy. I should have maybe said something, but I was hoping I was wrong.
I adjust the display/QT to whatever the shipping water is unless the shipping water is lower. So, the shipping water is 1.030, the fish can go right into the tank of 1.023. If the shipping water is 1.019, I adjust the display down to that and raise it up slowly over days.
I acclimate anything from the LFS, they don't have any of the ammonia issues. I've tested a good 30+ bags from all different sources. The only ones that show up with ammonia was the overnighters. The other option would be to maybe use an ammonia blocker if you want to go with the longer drip acclimation.
The effects of the pH on ammonia is immediate.
But I don't think it would have made a difference, he really didn't look healthy. I should have maybe said something, but I was hoping I was wrong.
Sherri, I'm so sorry. I do know that feeling well.
I agree with Renee about the lion looking rough. When I saw the pictures, I saw that "look" that some lions I've purchased had before they died (always within days). I suspect it wasn't your acclimation procedure.
I don't have anything against BZ, but the only mail order company where I've had consistent survival of fish is DD. I buy from them almost exclusively. Most of my long term fish originated from this company. While I am not saying you were shipped a sick fish, I question whether it was well enough acclimated to survive shipping.
The way I acclimate (not saying it's the best, but it's a bit of a compromise between drip vs. drop into the tank):
1. Right after opening the back, dump out excess water, leaving enough to cover fish
2. Add tank water - about 1/4 of the volume of the water in the bag
3. Add more of water (same amount as #2) in 10-15 minutes
4. Pour out as much of the water as possible, leaving enough to cover the fish
5. Repeat 2-3.
6. Add fish to tank
Water can also be siphoned or bailed out, depending on size, activity and stress level of fish. (Always dump into a bucket, not an open drain!)
In general, this works pretty well for me. I adjust too - quicker if fish looks stressed or water is foul.
I've had a couple heartbreaker lionfish. They are so hardy once established, but can be very delicate early on.
I agree with Renee about the lion looking rough. When I saw the pictures, I saw that "look" that some lions I've purchased had before they died (always within days). I suspect it wasn't your acclimation procedure.
I don't have anything against BZ, but the only mail order company where I've had consistent survival of fish is DD. I buy from them almost exclusively. Most of my long term fish originated from this company. While I am not saying you were shipped a sick fish, I question whether it was well enough acclimated to survive shipping.
The way I acclimate (not saying it's the best, but it's a bit of a compromise between drip vs. drop into the tank):
1. Right after opening the back, dump out excess water, leaving enough to cover fish
2. Add tank water - about 1/4 of the volume of the water in the bag
3. Add more of water (same amount as #2) in 10-15 minutes
4. Pour out as much of the water as possible, leaving enough to cover the fish
5. Repeat 2-3.
6. Add fish to tank
Water can also be siphoned or bailed out, depending on size, activity and stress level of fish. (Always dump into a bucket, not an open drain!)
In general, this works pretty well for me. I adjust too - quicker if fish looks stressed or water is foul.
I've had a couple heartbreaker lionfish. They are so hardy once established, but can be very delicate early on.
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Mental1
New member
Hi Lisa -- I am curious about the "look" you and Renee are mentioning. I really am really interested as to what you both are seeing. I really do not want to make the same mistake again. Can you both go into more detail? I believe it would help a lot of us here who love these guys.
I also make a judgment call each time -- but thanks for your descriptions as that is very helpful. I always struggle over the best way to acclimate - it's a very stressful time for me because I don't always know what's the best way. If the water smells bad it is a no-brainer. I quickly took a bellus angel out of a stinky bag and he swims funny even now. It appears to be neurological damage which is why I thought pH shock is to blame.
Lisa -- I agree -- DD is usually my exclusive on-line fish store. The fu pair I have came from them and they are going very strong. I am feeling better today -- it always takes me a few days to recover. What a weenie I am! Perhaps someone local will be interested in the DNA testing -- would be easy to get him to NE Aquarium or someone else close by.
I also make a judgment call each time -- but thanks for your descriptions as that is very helpful. I always struggle over the best way to acclimate - it's a very stressful time for me because I don't always know what's the best way. If the water smells bad it is a no-brainer. I quickly took a bellus angel out of a stinky bag and he swims funny even now. It appears to be neurological damage which is why I thought pH shock is to blame.
Lisa -- I agree -- DD is usually my exclusive on-line fish store. The fu pair I have came from them and they are going very strong. I am feeling better today -- it always takes me a few days to recover. What a weenie I am! Perhaps someone local will be interested in the DNA testing -- would be easy to get him to NE Aquarium or someone else close by.
It's hard to explain, but I have had lions that went downhill really fast, and often seemed to have associated bacterial infections. The skin of your lion had that look. I've had lions that died that never had the skin slough off and the fins melt (like the bluefin lions I tried) but they still had some sort of raw looking patches, then seemed to die quickly of stress/systemic infection. Maybe Renee can explain better.
namxas
Things With Stings R Us!
Sherri,
Bottom line is that shipping is hard on fish, period, so no matter what we do, it's not an easy thing to go from bag to tank. We've had out share of losses, trust me.
That "rough" look can mean a lot of things, or a combination of many: coloration (bright, pale?), fin condition (not always, as lions do come in with torn/unsheathed fins that heal up just fine), more importantly how they hold their fins (are they extended? clamped?), the look of their eyes (beyond cloudiness or clarity)...think of someone who isn't feeling well, how their eyes just seem "off". Body mass, shape and "blemishes" also help determine the fish's condition. Of course, you can't observe the fish eat or swim from an etailer, so you're limited to what you can see in a photo.
Those are the "tangible" things, but after awhile, you get a "sixth sense" about a fish where you can look at it and think "that fish ain't doing so well". Renee has an uncanny knack for this (maybe it's her years as a nurse), but she's almost always right. In fact, at work, some of the girls are a bit superstitious (for lack of a better word) about her because she can do this with patients.
Lisa,
Your experience with the bluefins is similar to ours...they seem to come down with a raging bacterial infection that, as you've seen, basically comes on overnight and the fish literally "fall apart" (we had one that had its jaw melt off). Our specimen that we've had over a year now has undergone at least two, maybe three courses of oral antibiotics when we've seen the tiniest spot on its pectorals, and it has seemed to do the trick (besides keeping it at 63*F max). IME, these fish are the touchiest of the touchy, as even tho they eat well, they're very non-aggressive feeders.
All we can do is keep learning from our experiences and each other...
Bottom line is that shipping is hard on fish, period, so no matter what we do, it's not an easy thing to go from bag to tank. We've had out share of losses, trust me.
That "rough" look can mean a lot of things, or a combination of many: coloration (bright, pale?), fin condition (not always, as lions do come in with torn/unsheathed fins that heal up just fine), more importantly how they hold their fins (are they extended? clamped?), the look of their eyes (beyond cloudiness or clarity)...think of someone who isn't feeling well, how their eyes just seem "off". Body mass, shape and "blemishes" also help determine the fish's condition. Of course, you can't observe the fish eat or swim from an etailer, so you're limited to what you can see in a photo.
Those are the "tangible" things, but after awhile, you get a "sixth sense" about a fish where you can look at it and think "that fish ain't doing so well". Renee has an uncanny knack for this (maybe it's her years as a nurse), but she's almost always right. In fact, at work, some of the girls are a bit superstitious (for lack of a better word) about her because she can do this with patients.
Lisa,
Your experience with the bluefins is similar to ours...they seem to come down with a raging bacterial infection that, as you've seen, basically comes on overnight and the fish literally "fall apart" (we had one that had its jaw melt off). Our specimen that we've had over a year now has undergone at least two, maybe three courses of oral antibiotics when we've seen the tiniest spot on its pectorals, and it has seemed to do the trick (besides keeping it at 63*F max). IME, these fish are the touchiest of the touchy, as even tho they eat well, they're very non-aggressive feeders.
All we can do is keep learning from our experiences and each other...
Fibinotchi
Upstanding Citizen
It was a rare beauty that we were honored to have seen.
ashtree68
Active member
This may sound weird, but any chance you could get it mounted? I'm not sure how the fins will hold up now, esp with the freezing, but if no one wants to do DNA testing on it, that'd be a cool way to keep him. I'm not sure if theres a place that could or would do it or how fresh they need to be but an idea I've thought about with a couple of my lions.
