Redundant system?

[MrSandman]

If someone didn't want to buy the backup battery but wanted a redundant backup system in case the breaker that the Vortech was plugged into tripped, would it be possible to just buy a 12V DC transformer and plug one end into the 12V plug on the Vortech controller and plug the transformer into a different outlet on a different circuit? If so, what would the current rating of the transformer need to be? Would it be possible to use a transformer that outputs a lower voltage? For example 6V?

 

[EcoTech Marine]

So long as you provide 12VDC at the 12v input and at least 1.5A then you will be ok. Don't go lower than 12v or 1.5A. In this configuration, the pump will run in battery backup mode in the absence of the 24v input.

-Tim

 

[MrSandman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13253454#post13253454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EcoTech Marine
So long as you provide 12VDC at the 12v input and at least 1.5A then you will be ok. Don't go lower than 12v or 1.5A. In this configuration, the pump will run in battery backup mode in the absence of the 24v input.

-Tim

Awesome. Thanks. You guys should sell the transformers and market this feature as i could see alot of interest for those not willing to spend the extra money on a backup battery but for a few extra bucks would like a redundant system.

Will the controller accept a standard 12V male plug? Or is it something else? Something like this should be fine?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...&origkw=12v+dc+adapter&pg=4&parentPage=search
http://www.12vadapters.com/adapter/power-supply/12v/2-amp-2a.html

 

[bimmerzs]

I just don't see how this will help you when your house loses power. It's unlikely that the vortech will be the only item plugged into the outlet so if the breaker trips for that circuit you will most likely lose the use of several other components in your setup. Why spend money on a 12V power supply that plugs into another outlet that's off another breaker, why not just plug the power to the vortech into the outlet that's on a different circuit. I understand what you are trying to do but to me it's seems pointless. Investing $150-$175 in a battery backup is relatively cheap when you compare it to the cost of replacing your livestock.

Cheers,

 

[MrSandman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13281405#post13281405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bimmerzs
I just don't see how this will help you when your house loses power. It's unlikely that the vortech will be the only item plugged into the outlet so if the breaker trips for that circuit you will most likely lose the use of several other components in your setup. Why spend money on a 12V power supply that plugs into another outlet that's off another breaker, why not just plug the power to the vortech into the outlet that's on a different circuit. I understand what you are trying to do but to me it's seems pointless. Investing $150-$175 in a battery backup is relatively cheap when you compare it to the cost of replacing your livestock.

Cheers,

Not sure i understand your comment. A different breaker IS a different circuit. For example, let's say my tank is run by 2 dedicated circuits/breakers. Both circuits have a GFCI's. GFCI's are notorious for tripping for no reason and everything on that circuit loses power. Having the 12V supply plugged into a separate circuit ensures that if the GFCI trips for some reason, the Vortech never loses complete power because it is still being powered by the 12V supply on a different circuit.

Anyways, i do have the battery backup. I was just stating this as an option for those who may need it. Simply thinking out loud here.

Another option may be to have the 12V power supply plugged into a UPS (uninterrupted power supply) and it would work the same as the battery backup. Wouldn't it?

 

[bimmerzs]

I have never had a GFCI trip for no reason, unless it's defective or of very poor quality.(non UL ) Yes a different breaker IS a different circuit...my point was why??? You could accomplish the same thing by having 2 seperate gfci outlets, fed from the same source, if one trip's then the other is not affected. If you add a 12V PS and a ups, that gives you 2 possible points of failure. St. Murphy is sure to visit.

Cheers,

 

[bimmerzs]

MrSandman,

The last comment was not too clear after rereading it. : ) Your plan for the 12V PS will work and protect you from a tripped GFCI however it will not help in the event that your house loses power. As you know, it would be best to utilize a system that protects from both...using a UPS and 12V PS will work as well however by the time you purchase a reliable UPS and 12 PS, you will not be far off money wise from a battery backup unit. You can find them used and a bit cheaper in the forums here.

Cheers,

 

[MrSandman]

Ok, that makes things a little bit clearer, however, if you do look around online you'll find UPS systems for pretty cheap. Of course the 12V supply into a different circuit won't work in the event that the entire house loses power but again, its all about options. Some people keep return pumps and recirc pumps on different circuits. Why is that? Some people strategically place equipment on different circuits. There is a reason for that. Putting the backup supply on a different circuit is just another way of redundancy. Things happen....The return pump may decide to seize up, or short out and trip the breaker. Somebody may have miscalculated on their electrical demands and when someone in the house decides to run the plasma TV, a vacuum cleaner, and the metal halides at the same time the breaker trips. These are all things that may happen. Who knows.

Plus, i've got 2 extra UPS's sitting around the house that i've used on my previous tank as a backup supply for my main return pump.

Living in Socal some people have what they call "rolling blackouts" in times of high loads on the power grid. Most times the power only cuts out for an hour or 2. This is where a lower capacity UPS might come in handy for those not looking to spend 165 bucks or more for a backup supply. I'm all about alternatives here. Just thinking out of the box. I know that there are some members here on RC that build their own UPS system using lead acid batteries and a power conditioner, so information like this may help them do things properly.

Tim, when the pumps switch to "backup power" mode, what is the current draw? Or how many watts is the system consuming? 9 watts? 17 watts?

You mentioned 1.5A up above for the minimum rating for a transformer but is that what it is actually drawing from the battery when in "backup" mode? Or is there a fudge factor thrown in there based on any resistance or frictional gains?

Again, just thinking out loud. Was planning on doing this myself offline but figured i'd document some of my findings in case anyone else is looking to do similar. After all, that's what this board is for, right?

 

[Fuppets]

I have thought about a couple of Optima batterys and a automatic trickle charger for a battery backup. What would you need a power conditioner for?
Now that I think about it you could run the betterys at 24V and have battery backup at full speed.

 

[MrSandman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13290916#post13290916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fuppets
I have thought about a couple of Optima batterys and a automatic trickle charger for a battery backup. What would you need a power conditioner for?
Now that I think about it you could run the betterys at 24V and have battery backup at full speed.

Yes, you could run them at 24V but you may not be able to use the 12V port on the Vortech to power it. Maybe Ecotech can confirm this. If you can't then you'd have to hook up a relay that in the event of a power outage diverts power from the wall outlet to the backup battery and switches back when power kicks back on. Quite simple actually. For those that need backup power for longer you can probably run a couple 12V Optima batteries in series and get double the run time. What is the capacity of the Optima batteries anyways?

I'm not sure you would need a power conditioner for this pump since it runs off DC power. I do know that in the past when i've run AC powered pumps on a cheap UPS it would chatter like crazy. From what i remember, a cheap UPS puts out a square wave and using a conditioner on the output converts it to a sine wave resulting in cleaner power which is supposedly better for AC motors and electronics.

 

[EcoTech Marine]

The pump input is DC. In order for the battery backup functionality to occur the input must be 12v, otherwise the pump won't know to switch to the 12v source in the absence of the 24v source and it will pull from both 24v inputs equally.

-Tim

 

[bimmerzs]

Your response came across as very condensenting. I'm all about alternatives as well...as long as it fit's the situation. For one or two hours, it's would be just as effective to have one or more of the $10-$15 battery back-up pumps kick on and that most likely is not even needed for that short of a period. I agree that this board is here to help us find alternative ways to solve tank related issues, wheather it's through commercial means.....or through innovation. I really don't think a vendor's forum is the best place to discuss way's to circumvent the product that said vendor sell's, it cool to ask for data to help you build something but other than that, I think you should take the discussion out side of their forum. Of course thats just my opinion.

Cheers,

 

[MrSandman]

Take it as you will. I never meant for any of my comments to be condescending.

I'm not trying to circumvent anything that the vendor sells. If you want to be technically correct, Ecotech doesn't sell the backup battery. Icecap does. Regardless, if i was trying to circumvent Icecap's product, i wouldn't have bought one myself. What i was trying to do was find other ways to utilize the innovative 12V port that Ecotech so wisely designed on their pumps without causing damage to it. If anything, this thread adds value to their product because other people out there will see the options that this 12V port provides them. If Ecotech wanted to corner the market for 12V backup batteries for their pump then they would have developed a proprietary connection for it.

Also, people have too much money invested in their tanks to trust it with a 10-15 dollar battery powered air pump for 1-2 hours. If you're willing to take that risk when there are other viable options out there, then go for it. As for me, i'll continue looking for other options. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[bimmerzs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13296923#post13296923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrSandman
Take it as you will. I never meant for any of my comments to be condescending.

I'm not trying to circumvent anything that the vendor sells. If you want to be technically correct, Ecotech doesn't sell the backup battery. Icecap does. Regardless, if i was trying to circumvent Icecap's product, i wouldn't have bought one myself. What i was trying to do was find other ways to utilize the innovative 12V port that Ecotech so wisely designed on their pumps without causing damage to it. If anything, this thread adds value to their product because other people out there will see the options that this 12V port provides them. If Ecotech wanted to corner the market for 12V backup batteries for their pump then they would have developed a proprietary connection for it.

You really sound like a a very bitter person...... :bum:

Also, people have too much money invested in their tanks to trust it with a 10-15 dollar battery powered air pump for 1-2 hours. If you're willing to take that risk when there are other viable options out there, then go for it. As for me, i'll continue looking for other options. Of course, that's just my opinion.

A tank without any circulation at all, will not die in one or two hours. If you think it will then ___ ___ __ _____ .

Cheers,

 

[MrSandman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13300167#post13300167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bimmerzs
You really sound like a a very bitter person...... :bum:



A tank without any circulation at all, will not die in one or two hours. If you think it will then ___ ___ __ _____ .

Cheers,

I'm not about to play your childish game...

I'm done contributing to this thread. My questions have been answered and i have enough information to go forward. My thanks to Tim for his help.

 

[sflorlando]

why do all informative threads end up this way.