Jdbrine
New member
+1.... I agree 110%!!!!
Reef Ich Problem - Need Advise
- Thread starter RiversideGator
- Start date
+1.... I agree 110%!!!!
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I disagree 111%. My DTs are ich-free. About 12 years ago, I started QT on everything and started prophetically treating all fish with copper (I'm not giving advice on this, just my experience & preference). Since then, I have not seen an ich-type parasite in any of my DTs....and I keep a lot of fish. I know this is just one anecdotal account; but so are the experiences of people who have the "ich is always there" opinion. There are plenty of ich-free tank owners on this forum and I've read the same from most major writers on the subject. BTW: I'm more and more convinced that ich is mis-diagnosed very, very often.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
Info & opinions on this subject are changing so fast; who really knows for sure what's what? While I agree that good nutrition (plus good all-around husbandry) are key to keeping a healthy fish ich-free. I do not think anything other than hypo, copper, and probably quinine sulfate, will actually cure the disease. Ich cannot get into a tank unless it is introduced. It is possible to prevent that from happening. If all the hype about "super resistant ich" pans out; then it may be another story.
EDIT: I think this thread is going two directions at once. Some points address curing an infested tank, others address preventing the infestation in the first place. They are two different problems with 2 different approaches. I agree with Fenner in your post #12 above. Tanks can be ich free with diligence...
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FocusFin
New member
What advice is that exactly because all I've read are multiple posts pointing out why the suggestions made so far are wrong.
The OP is looking for help for his immediate problem which is how to treat his tank without 1. removing the fish 2. harming his inhabitants. His remaining options are limited to medicating with reef safe treatments (which he is already doing) and/or focus on boosting the immune system of his fish in order to possibly reverse the progression of ich on his Tang and help prevent development in his other fish. If you have other suggestions please, please provide them as I am sure the only thing the OP is concerned with at the moment is avoiding death in his tank.
BTW I may have played a part in misdirecting this thread initially with my observations on diet as a prevention for Ich but continuing to debate the merits of diet vs quarantine/copper etc... is pointless since the infection has already occurred.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I've wandered quite a bit too; could you point to the posts that you're referring to your first paragraph? Differences of opinion (lacking documentation) are not right or wrong. I did say in post #10 that the OP is looking for something that doesn't exist, which was stated as opinion.
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FocusFin
New member
The OP asked for advice on how to treat a tank without removing the fish. I responded that I have had 100% success with immediate use of a diet supplement not only to treat a sick fish but also to prevent sickness in the rest of the fish.
You didn't agree and made that point several times (in fact quoting me twice for the exact same sentence) and another member who happened to agree with me, which is fine except that you offered absolutely nothing constructive to the problem at hand. In other words, it appears that you are simply dumping on peoples suggestions while offering none of your own. The OP didn't come here looking for easy answers, he came for advice from other hobbyists who have been in similar situations - raises hand
My advice to the OP was reasonable and responsible. I didn't say don't try anything else, I simply provided a non-invasive, 100% safe option that he could choose or disregard. Others offered their advice which is consistent with the spirit of this board.
Can we now turn the focus back to the issue at hand.
This is how I got rid of ich in my tank.
I have a 180g FOWLR setup w/ approx 3 inches of sand. I fought ich , with items like Kich-ich, tried UV and nothing. The same 3 or 4 fish would still get ich, they were able to beat it though, but any new fish I got, got it real bad and died within a few days. Then after much thought, when the ich wasent seen on any fish, and most likely breeding in the sand, I removed all my sand using a wet-vac. So basically went bare-bottom.
This was 9 months ago..
Since then - NO ich...no where....the same 3 or 4 fish never show signs and have purchase a few more fish since then...and nothing. No ich.
Not sure if I got lucky.....but seems to work for me.
I have a 180g FOWLR setup w/ approx 3 inches of sand. I fought ich , with items like Kich-ich, tried UV and nothing. The same 3 or 4 fish would still get ich, they were able to beat it though, but any new fish I got, got it real bad and died within a few days. Then after much thought, when the ich wasent seen on any fish, and most likely breeding in the sand, I removed all my sand using a wet-vac. So basically went bare-bottom.
This was 9 months ago..
Since then - NO ich...no where....the same 3 or 4 fish never show signs and have purchase a few more fish since then...and nothing. No ich.
Not sure if I got lucky.....but seems to work for me.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I'm sure a response would never get past the mods; so I'll just thank my Dad for passing on his sense of humor to me and go on.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I'm sorry that this thread has gone berserk; this obviously is one of the most debated issues to come along in the 30+ years I've been in the hobby. Almost everything on a forum is someone's opinion and/or experience. Nothing more, nothing less. Here's my opinion on your situation. I'm assuming there is no way you can QT these fish. There appears to be enough anecdotal evidence that excellent husbandry practices can keep ich under control; the big question is "for how long". Pristine water, excellent diet, vitamin supplements, and a low-stress environment may help. IMO, when these things do help, ich is just kept under control and not completely eradicated from your system. As long as ich is present in your system, there is a probability it will return. The severity and timing of its probable return simply isn't known. I know this vague; but until quite recently, keeping fish in a system with ich was considered impossible. At least long-term. Time will tell: is this a few month reprieve, or can it last years? As to the reef-safe treatments you mention: I've never heard many favorable comments about them, but I have no reason to think you shouldn't try them---given your situation. Raising temps, U.V. and cleaner fish/shrimp are also mentioned as cures; but they are not. Knowing the life cycle of the ich parasite makes it obvious that they can't eradicate ich. Of course, QT is the real answer to parasite problems and I hope you'll use it in the future. Good luck, and please keep us posted.
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RiversideGator
Member
Update 4/13/11 - Day 7
Day 1
Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.
Day 3
I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.
Day 5
I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.
Day 6
Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.
Day 7
The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).
Day 1
Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.
Day 3
I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.
Day 5
I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.
Day 6
Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.
Day 7
The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I assume you think the Kick-Ich is causing the coral problem. Me too. I admit to never having used any of these "reef safe" ich remedies and would guess the posts I've read on RC are at least 10 to 1 unfavorable. As a last resort, you might call the Kick-Ick mfg and talk to Tech Support. At this point, what can you lose? I'm a big fan of using this resource; but you may just get another salesman. (Some companies have some excellent, very independent tech people who don't always toe the company line.) Of course, add your own common sense to whatever you hear. You're really in a tough spot. I'd use every resource you can; and hope someone comes along who has found a way to successfully use this product.
FocusFin
New member
Just some thoughts:
Are you still adding the Selcon and garlic to the food? If so, how often are you feeding? I found that more frequent feedings rather than all at once helped reduce stress, as well I added Selcon to nori which I hung in the tank so that there was treated food there constantly.
My Hippo Tang did not appear to get any better for a least two weeks, in fact at times it looked worse until slowly the spots began to diminish. It took well into three weeks before I was out of the woods.
You know, not to be pessimistic but one thing that helped me was resigning myself to the fact that I could lose all of my fish to this outbreak and once I realized the worst case scenario, I stopped stressing about it and just worked on the things I could directly control like water params, diet, reduced stress etc..
In the end, I was fortunate not to lose any fish but I was prepared for the worst and anything less was a bonus.
BTW if you can provide any pics of the Tang and the Blenny it might help to confirm that both fish have the same condition. Also, which fish went in the tank recently.
RegalAngel
Member
I see nothing about removing the corals? Can you do that?
If so, after removing them, I would treat the tank with Quinine Sulfate which will kill the Ich in the tank. I have done this with my DT (didn't have the corals however).
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1974075
MrTuskfish
Team RC
Quinine Sulfate is sure becoming an interesting topic. The more I learn, the more I appreciate its potential. Especially when some real pros are pushing it. Isn't there a concern about LR & substrate absorbing and releasing the QS? I don't remember seeing anything either way. If not, this may be an ideal situation to use QS....assuming the corals could be removed.
RegalAngel
Member
Tusk,
I don't believe it is a problem as with Copper and here is what Lance Ichinotsubo had to say about that:
"I agree that Quinine, as well as Chloroquine are not as stressful on fish as formalin or copper. It is also true that they will not plate out and be removed from solution through chemical bonding, as copper can. Carbon and water exchanges are very effective means of removing these anti-malarial drugs,and it is true that they are photo reactive compounds, so it is possible that strong light can reduce their effectiveness."
Best Regards,
Lance Ichinotsubo
Captive Seas Aquariums
Coral Springs, Florida
direct: 954.275.2888
email: lance@captiveseasaquariums.com
It did not appear to be an issue when I dosed my 360g DT system that contains substrate, rocks, artifical corals. I did two 5 day applications and that is all that was needed...no Ich since.
RiversideGator
Member
Update 4/14/11 - Day 8
Day 1
Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.
Day 3
I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.
Day 5
I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.
Day 6
Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.
Day 7
The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).
Day 8
Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.
Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.
Matt
Day 1
Noticed a few Ich spots on my Chevron Tang - Normal behavior and eating well. No other fish show any signs of Ich.
Day 3
I started soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish feeding well.
Day 5
I performed a 27% water change and noticed the Chevron Tang starting to have a difference in breathing with slight jerky motions. Still eating well.
Day 6
Dosed with Kick Ich at 6:00 AM; Tang is still breathing different and still only a few spots. At 10:00 PM he was hiding and breathing heavy but came out to eat. I see a few new spots. Still no sign of spots on other fish. Some Pulsing Xenia are withered and do not look well.
Day 7
The Chevron Tang is still breathing different and now has several noticable spots. He is still hiding and breathing heavy but still comes out to eat and chases other fish. I now see some discoloration of pectoral fins on the Black Blenny; this is what the Chevron Tang's pectoral fins 7 days ago. There no signs of spots on the other 3 fish. Some Pulsing Xenia have died and are obviously no longer pulsing. No damage visible damage to any other corals. I am now debating whether to dose for "heavy infection" which includes one additional dosing (Days 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 instead of 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13).
Day 8
Dosed with Kick Ich (Day 3 of treatment) at 6:00 AM. No noticable changes from yesterday. I definitely believe the Kick Ich cause Xenia death. I am still soaking the food in Selcon and garlic juice. All fish are still feeding well. I feed 3X per day. The 1st feeding are Tropical Crisps; the 2nd feeding is Formula 2 pellets; and the 3rd feeding is a rotation of frozen food: Mysis Shrimp, Brine Shrip w/spirulina and Cyclopeeze. I feed at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM and 11:30 PM. I am gone all day and a good part of the night.
Thanks all again for your comments, advice and feedback.
Matt
Did you take a look at Herbtana from Microbe-Lift ?
From that there are actually quite some positive reports so far, without any ill effects towards invertebrates.
I am going through the same thing with my Trigger now and I started the Herbtana treatment. As I am in the same position that I do not want to remove the trigger from the DT, without being forced to tear half the tank down and stress out all the other fish and even worse...causing even more stress on the Trigger.
Temporarely lowering your photo period will also help with reducing stress on your infected fish, so I've gotten as advice.
From that there are actually quite some positive reports so far, without any ill effects towards invertebrates.
I am going through the same thing with my Trigger now and I started the Herbtana treatment. As I am in the same position that I do not want to remove the trigger from the DT, without being forced to tear half the tank down and stress out all the other fish and even worse...causing even more stress on the Trigger.
Temporarely lowering your photo period will also help with reducing stress on your infected fish, so I've gotten as advice.
dwa_jeff
Member
I've had relatively good luck with herbtana from microbe-lift as well. Its a gentle treatment so its a little easier on the fish, but that is kind of the caveat with this product, you need to start it as soon as you have suspect there might be Ich. Its a 10 day treatment, but its safe with inverts, so thats a huge plus. I know some people have issues with some sps during treatment with Herbtana but that has not been my experience.
This along with the usual stuff, lower salinity, raise temps, power feeding w/garlic, etc and I've had positive results.
Best of luck, hope your chevron pulls through.
This along with the usual stuff, lower salinity, raise temps, power feeding w/garlic, etc and I've had positive results.
Best of luck, hope your chevron pulls through.
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