Reef Keeping Misconceptions

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907737#post13907737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
I hope I would never make any statements I can't backup either based on personal experience or factual evidence.
On that note, success to me does not mean a couple years. Success to me is long term sustainability. I've seen way too many nice looking tanks simply to hear they have crashed for one reason or another after a few years. If stony growths can be maintained from inception to full colonies while following a set procedure for more than a few years, I would consider that a success story.

I understand what you are saying but as I stated before I believe it can be done with dedication and good husbandry skills, plus paying close attention to what your tank is telling you, I do believe it is possible long term, so far it's been 3+years for me, can I keep it going? I believe that I can, will I keep going, you can bet your last dollar
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907642#post13907642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Here's a skimmerless tank that is QUITE worthy of TOTM...

http://haaga.aqua-web.org/082006/index.htm

I'm not about to pull my skimmer yet though.

This is a beautiful tank.
Is there a page or thread with descriptions of the maintenance regimen?
How often (and how much water) are water changes performed?
Any chemical nutrient control used?
Without getting into semantics, I'm assuming that large or frequent water changes are not to replace skimmers when we are talking about a thriving skimmerless system. Anotherwords, if nutrient management is to be replaced by frequent or large water changes and/or chemical media, the comparison between skimmer and skimmerless systems no longer remains valid since we are including variables not previously discussed.
However, I am not assuming that is the case with these tanks. I certainly was not able to make a skimmerless system work long term while following the typical/average maintenance regimen.
 
Mine does ok without skimming...but I use pleated paper filters that are changed out weekly and bleached.

With the addition of a carbon source the filters plug about 5x faster resulting in faded colors.

I use AA and a carbon source depending on how the tank looks.

I sometimes remove the pleated filter for a few weeks to eliminate the wall between the tank and refugium.


Different strokes for different tanks I guess.
 
I'm inclined to believe (by a leap of faith) that a *mature* tank chock full of large, fast-growing, hungry corals is not as hard to run skimmerless as many of us expect. Further, I know of a local absolutely spectacular SPS tank that is definitely underskimmed according to *common knowledge* standards. His tank has the best colors of any SPS tank I have ever seen in person, hands down (on PAR with Marko Haaga's tank above). His tank also has longevity to support his success. However, if you asked him, he considers his tank underskimmed and he will soon be upgrading to a better skimmer. From my perspective, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

I'm still not willing to get rid of my skimmer though.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907815#post13907815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
This is a beautiful tank.
Is there a page or thread with descriptions of the maintenance regimen?
How often (and how much water) are water changes performed?
Any chemical nutrient control used?
Without getting into semantics, I'm assuming that large or frequent water changes are not to replace skimmers when we are talking about a thriving skimmerless system. Anotherwords, if nutrient management is to be replaced by frequent or large water changes and/or chemical media, the comparison between skimmer and skimmerless systems no longer remains valid since we are including variables not previously discussed.
However, I am not assuming that is the case with these tanks. I certainly was not able to make a skimmerless system work long term while following the typical/average maintenance regimen.

Those pics were taken after his tank was skimmerless for more than a year.

Here's how it was originally set up (http://haaga.aqua-web.org/hardware/index.htm).

Here's a summary of the life of the tank in Marko Haaga's words...
"Started September 2003.

845 l aquarium (200 x 65 x 65), 170 l refugium and 90 l sump.

About 100 kg of live rock. Most of the rocks are from previous aquariums starting from the year 1993. There is 3-5 cm of coral sand (0-2mm) in the bottom of the aquarium and 5 cm in the bottom of the refugium.

The light comes from two ATI Powermodul 8 x 39w T5. These lamps have been used nearly half a year now. There are 8 ATI Blue plus tubes and 8 Arcadia Marine White tubes. This combination seems to be best to my eyes at the moment. Four blue tubes are on for 13 h and the rest of the tubes for 11 h per day. The ATI Powermodul is a very nice lamp. It has one fan for every two tubes. The fan blows warm air to the sides of the lamps so that aquarium can stay much cooler than with metal halide lights. For that reason I now have to use a heater to keep the water at 26 centigrade. The refugium is light by three 39w T5 tubes (3 x ATI Aquablue Special) on for 12 h per day in opposite daylight rhythm.

Water flows from the aquarium overflow directly to the refugium and from there through overflow to the sump. As a return pump there is Ocean Runner 3500. Water movement in the aquarium is achieved with Tunze Stream 12000 on a Singlecontroller, Tunze 7410 pump and with Tunze Wavebox. Wavebox produces about 1 cm high wave in my tank in the daytime. Balling method is used to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Calcium chloride and sodium carbonate liquids are added with GroTech TEC III NG dosing pump. Sodium chloride free salt mix is not used at the time to test its influence on my reef. Water level is maintained with DIY mechanical level switch connected to pressurized ROââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“DI water containers. Salinity is of the aquarium water is kept at about 35 ppt measured with refractometer.

Activated carbon (0.5 l, changed once a month) is used continually in passive circulation. 120 l water change is done every week with RO-DI water using mainly Tropic Marin Pro-Reef or hw Meersalz Professional. Some trace elements, mainly iron, strontium and Tropic Marin Lugol's solution are added irregularly. Fish are fed usually once every day with small amount of frozen (mainly artemia and mysis mixed with small amount of Cyclop- eeze) or flake/granular food.

Over 12 years of reef keeping, I have kept tanks run with pure Berlin system, Jaubert's plenum plus skimmer, DSB plus skimmer with and without algae refugium, and with ZEOvit system. All systems have maintained healthy corals and good growth in my hands. Some systems have worked better in some points, but also in every system there has been some negative aspects. At the end of July 2005 I cut down many of the overgrown corals and removed some live rock and started to experiment with skimmerless setup. I also sold my calcium and kalkwasser reactors and started to use Balling method. The simpleReef was started. My experiences have been very positive. The setup is now very plain and natural, and it needs only a little maintenance. Corals and fishes look just magnificent. I will never go back to that classical high tech setup I used to have. I recommend this setup to all, to both beginners and to experts.
"
 
For me, a common misconception is that there is a 'recipe for success' that can be applied blindly. IME, every tank needs tweaking away from the recipe at some point in time and it is up to the aquarist to do his/her research on the next method to apply. Even the TOTM or TOTM-quality tanks which appear to be using a common recipe at first glance actually have quite dissimilar maintenance practices. DSB vs SSB vs BB? MH vs T5 vs VHO-only (banish the thought :eek2: :lol: )? DKH at NSW or DKH at 12? Ca at 410 or at 500?
 
based on the above description, It would not be quite accurate to label this system a "skimmerless" system, since we have no idea what the tank looked like in terms of growth before he went skimmerless.
However, I still think <2 years is still too early to tell. Although Marko states his system "needs only little maintenance." it is still much more than I am willing to commit to. Perhaps that is why a skimmerless system failed for me. I currently try to change roughly 7% of water monthly, and sometimes I can't manage to due to time restraints. I also do not run any chemical media be it carbon or PO4 media, so there is no media to change out. I run bb and have several pumps blasting the sump bottom, so I do not siphon detritus either. The only thing I clean is my skimmer once a week. The display glass stays clean for up to four days at a time before I start to notice a slight film developing. I dose two part and vodka manually. I would say my maintenance is geared toward lazy/busy people but it is something I know I can manage long term.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907987#post13907987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
based on the above description, It would not be quite accurate to label this system a "skimmerless" system, since we have no idea what the tank looked like in terms of growth before he went skimmerless.

Actually, it's all documented on his site (http://haaga.aqua-web.org/index.html). IMO, his tank took a turn for the better after he went skimmerless.

As for the two year threshold, I agree. I've looked for 2007/2008 updates but I haven't been able to find any.

***EDIT
I found updates! Woo-hoo! You have no idea how many times I've tried to follow up to see what happened to his tank. Apparently he disassembled his tank last year and started a new one from the parent stock. He's keeping to the super-simple methodology he described earlier. Links:
Photos:
http://gallery.me.com/markopiatapioelina#100087&bgcolor=black&view=grid

Methodology:
http://www.sreef.fi/sReef/sReef.html

***

I'm lazy too. :D
 
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I also want to add that if your tank is heavily stocked with fish then I would say in that instance it almost mandatory to have a skimmer
 
If you look at Ultimate Marine Systems by Mike Paletta, almost a third of the tanks he showcases do not have skimmers.

Commercial aquariums have refugiums in a 1:1 ratio with the tank. There are other methods

I will add my own favorite misconception that phosphate is bad. You need some phosphate for healthy corals. Phosphate is not bad, out of balance water chemistry is bad. Too much PO4 and too many nitrogen compounds will breed algae. In the right amounts, it's all good. No PO4, and your corals will really suffer.
 
As for one of the original questions I personally do not think you can overskim a tank. I skim heavily and always have.
I do not think overskimming will result in pale corals.
If anyone asks me where I have been, I have been keeping fish since 1950. My still running, heavily skimmed reef was started almost 40 years ago so I really don't need a source for my information as I write it myself.
:smokin:
I do not change much water, only about 20% 5 times a year or so.
Skimming removes water with the same relative proportions as the water in the tank. (except for DOC) Skimming removes basically whatever is stuck to the surface of a bubble. It only works because some molecules are at the same time attracted to water on one end and air at the other end. All that other stuff that is removed, is removed accidently as it is temporarily adhering to the surface tension of the bubbles. As more pollution builds up in a tank, the surface tension of the bubbles is greater and the bubbles do not burst as quickly. You can see it clearly on any beach with a surf, if the bubbles last on the sand, you know the water is poluted.
If your water is un polluted, the skimmer will remove almost nothing.

Have a great day
Paul :beer:
 
I don't think you can overskim either. Well I guess if you had one of those skimmers that is 6 foot tall on a 55 maybe but otherwise or the volume of your skimmer is larger than your display but who is going to do that..... I use extra large skimmers on my tanks just so I can feed the crap out of my fish. With the amount of food going in and poop coming out on my tank I could not imagine what would happen if I had no skimmer. Also with the massive amounts of food going in the corals are eating a lot as well and I do not have pastel or faded colors.
 
I don't think so either. My skimmer is almost 5' tall and is used with ozone.


13094Copy_of_Copy_of_skimmer.jpg
 
I think Paul's point, (and is what I've noticed as well) is that it doesn't matter how large the skimmer is. It will only skim if there is something to take out. The difference between a small and larger skimmer is the rate at which the "wastes" are removed.
 
I think Paul's point, (and is what I've noticed as well) is that it doesn't matter how large the skimmer is. It will only skim if there is something to take out. The difference between a small and larger skimmer is the rate at which the "wastes" are removed.

Correctomundo
 
'Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing'


whew.. you do that too? i get the strangest looks..
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922854#post13922854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by porthios
'Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing'


whew.. you do that too? i get the strangest looks..
:confused:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888487#post13888487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Is that even possible?

Hello, I'm Adam and I am an over-skimmer. :lol:

The worst part is that it is true, my corals did become unhappy. The reason though was that there were no fish, therefore no input of nutrient sources. There was also a LOT of things taking out nutrients. Before this happened I did not think this was possible either.
 
If you had no fish, and there were no input of nutrients, the skimmer will have nothing to take out.
Your corals were "not happy" for other reasons IMO. Without any fish or nutrient input, your corals would have been unhappy even if you didn't have a skimmer.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888904#post13888904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley

I know not all reefers dose AA's but I do know that when you skim very heavy and run a BB system you can get so low nutrient that corals turn pastel and light in color, which hobbyist turn to either adding more fish for fish poo and add supplementation in order to get their colors in check [/B]


Adding too much AA will do that as well.
 
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