Reefsavvy's Ghost Overflow: Patent Pending?

[Overgrown]

So Reefsavvy just "released" their Ghost overflow.
I run Beans overflow in all my tanks, and couldn't help but notice:
*The surface skimming of the Coast to coast weir is missing from the Ghost.
* The Ghost employs a short box with an inordinately deep notch( an attempt at a weir?) that is essentially rendered obsolete by the addition of the slotted teeth covering that is a critical part of the Ghost overflow
*The deep notch lowers the water in the display significantly
*Display water travels through bulkheads instead of just flowing over the weir, eliminating your would-be surface skimming.
*The airline to trigger the open channel into a full siphon is missing?
*And lastly: the Ghost overflow is "patent pending"? I'm loosely familiar with the patent process, as I just filled a PPA of my own, and I'm just curious: How is your Non Provisional patent going to be granted/ hold water on a standpipe design that someone else ( Bean) came up with years ago, and a grossly superior design at that? What is being patented? The removable teeth box? Because if said patent attempt involves any of the standpipe design, If Im not mistaken, even if Bean didn't lock down the utility patent it's still considered prior art.

I should note that I'm not trying to flame RS, I simply couldn't resist at pointing out some of the design flaws in their, to quote Aquanerd's blog " GameChanging New Overflow."

Comments welcome

-OG

 

[mussel and hate]

I don't see anything innovative here. I can't understand what aspect of this overflow is "gamechanging". These days the USPTO just rubber stamps applications for a fee. I expect the fee exceeds the actual value of the patent in this case.

Now Mr. Basso has some innovative overflow designs. I don't think he's filed for any patents. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2053326

 

[Drae]

The whole coast to coast calfo design is great in theory but that's about it imo. This reef savvy "ghost overflow has only one flaw imo and you called it on sight... The deep notch lowers the internal water level a little too much for my liking but I guess that can be fixed by raising the ghost box a tad. I like this overflow and I personally think Felix makes the best tanks on the planet imo. This method is just a cleaned up bean animal and way more sleek. The whole purpose for the bean is silence and redundancy and felix nailed it in a tight little package. The design still pulls water from the surface, it still implements a full siphon with an emergency and trickle drain and it looks a lot better than that long calfo design. If the calfo was needed for a tank to thrive then I would use it but it's not. Some of the best sps tanks use old fashioned top to bottom overflows with just a herbie and they maintain perfect water quality with no oily buildup at the top. I like felix's ghost design and if he sells them and ships them without having to purchase a tank I will use them from here out. JMO

 

[Overgrown]

The whole coast to coast calfo design is great in theory but that's about it imo. This reef savvy "ghost overflow has only one flaw imo and you called it on sight... The deep notch lowers the internal water level a little too much for my liking but I guess that can be fixed by raising the ghost box a tad. I like this overflow and I personally think Felix makes the best tanks on the planet imo. This method is just a cleaned up bean animal and way more sleek. The whole purpose for the bean is silence and redundancy and felix nailed it in a tight little package. The design still pulls water from the surface, it still implements a full siphon with an emergency and trickle drain and it looks a lot better than that long calfo design. If the calfo was needed for a tank to thrive then I would use it but it's not. Some of the best sps tanks use old fashioned top to bottom overflows with just a herbie and they maintain perfect water quality with no oily buildup at the top. I like felix's ghost design and if he sells them and ships them without having to purchase a tank I will use them from here out. JMO

"great in theory but that's about it IMO"
The great thing about the C2C/Bean method isn't just the theory, its the physics, which is something thats impossible to debate. Wider the weir and the less inhibited: better the surface renewal. Period.
I agree there's some killer tanks utilizing simple trapezoid overflows with teeth. This hobby consumes so much of my time though that I won't settle for something simply because some have success running a system with inferior flood fail safe and flow properties. To each his own.
Contrarily, one of the main benefits of the Bean in its true form, with a smooth, uninhibited weir, is that it pulls a ton of water from below the surface.

 

[Deinonych]

I saw this setup at MACNA. It is indeed just a modified BeanAnimal overflow, but damn if ReefSavvy's tanks aren't beautiful. May have to get one for my next tank.

 

[Drae]

The great thing about the C2C/Bean method isn't just the theory, its the physics, which is something thats impossible to debate. Wider the weir and the less inhibited: better the surface renewal. Period. .[/QUOTE]

I agree that a toothless coast to coast is by far the best means of surface skimming without a doubt. But to what degree does that really benefit a tank? I've had tanks with hob filters and my water is always great. I've also had tanks with internal weir's that maintain great parameters. Next to water quality is the tanks aesthetics imo and Felix's overflow looks great to me. Jmo's. Not trying to start a debate at all.

 

[Drae]

I saw this setup at MACNA. It is indeed just a modified BeanAnimal overflow, but damn if ReefSavvy's tanks aren't beautiful. May have to get one for my next tank.

I'm a carpenter by trade ( finish and framing) so I have an eye for craftsmanship and Felix builds the best tanks I've ever seen in person. His skills are superb and second to none imo.

 

[Overgrown]

I'm a carpenter by trade ( finish and framing) so I have an eye for craftsmanship and Felix builds the best tanks I've ever seen in person. His skills are superb and second to none imo.

Reef Savvy does build nice tanks. No argument there. But what I've realized after ordering maybe a half dozen custom tanks over the years is that its all the same glass, especially if you're ordering Starphire( from PPG)
These tank manufacturers are simply getting the panes cut by a glazier, siliconing them together and cutting some holes. So while the siliconing integrity and simple math required to cut some holes in the right places needs to be present, I'm not sure if I'd compare the skill level to that of a carpenter for example, who's working from scratch.

 

[Overgrown]

I don't see anything innovative here. I can't understand what aspect of this overflow is "gamechanging". These days the USPTO just rubber stamps applications for a fee. I expect the fee exceeds the actual value of the patent in this case.

Now Mr. Basso has some innovative overflow designs. I don't think he's filed for any patents. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2053326

Sort of. It's in the USPTO's best interest to deny the first round of PPA's, and NPA's so you have to pay their fees to resubmit your application( most applicants do) Their like the mafia, if you will.

 

[MK]

Well on the Willam's website are clear informations:

This website and all contents are © copyright 1989 - 2012 by William Burnett.
All rights reserved. No part of this website or the related files may be
reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form, by
any means (electronic, photocopying, recording, or otherwise) without
the prior written permission of the William Burnett.

How somebody can patent his idea then...???

By the way similar overflow systems I've seen looooong time ago in Europe, the only difference these pipes was installed in corner overflows not external but who cares...

Only my 2 cents...

 

[NeveSSL]

I'm planning on grabbing a Ghost Overflow. I can't figure out why people keep comparing it to a coast to coast. I think people are seeing Reef Savvy used the BA type drain in the back of it, but that's where the similarities end, really, other than surface skimming, of which the Ghost does very well as Drae has already pointed out. I understand the physics theory behind the smooth weir overflows, but I hated how my fish always ended up in them (my royal gramma in particular) and I also hated how far they stuck out, but part of that was because it was on a 45g which is only 12.5" front to back. This overflow, however, would have been the perfect solution since it only sticks out I think 3" or so? Personally, I'd rather have teeth on my overflows, especially if they're wide.

To me, the beauty of this overflow is the fact its an external overflow that is easy to install and commercially available. No one else, to my knowledge, is offering an overflow like this. The other great thing about this overflow is the magnetically attached weir cover. Its easy to take off to clean if you need to.

As far as it driving the water low, that's easy to solve... install it higher. I also think they said they were going to decrease the size of the slots to bring water levels up a bit more, too. Or just push 3,000GPH through it... lol Easy to solve.

As far as the patents go, there are a lot of new things on this overflow that I haven't seen anywhere else, especially the magnetic weir cover. My bet is that they're patenting the unique things, not BA stuff.

BTW, carpenters don't build everything from scratch. They get their wood from places just like aquarium builders get their glass from suppliers. I'm betting you've not seen a Reef Savvy tank in person. Honestly, its a piece of art as far as I'm concerned. I can't afford one right now, but its on my tank bucket list. If you get a chance, check it out. BTW, if custom tanks are so easy to build, why have other people build your half dozen? You should just put them together yourself since there's no "true" skill involved. Oh, and do a rimless tank since the math is so easy. I'm sure you'll know how to calculate the thickness of the glass and add in the engineering safety factor of 5.

MK, the difference between a patent and copyrights is far and wide. What you are quoting is the copyright on his website. We are talking patents. Completely different beasts is only part of the reason that clause doesn't matter in this case.

Just my thoughts on some of this. Ask for comments and you shall receive... :hmm3:

Brandon

 

[acesq]

[/QUOTE/] BTW, carpenters don't build everything from scratch. They get their wood from places just like aquarium builders get their glass from suppliers. I'm betting you've not seen a Reef Savvy tank in person. Honestly, its a piece of art as far as I'm concerned. I can't afford one right now, but its on my tank bucket list. If you get a chance, check it out. BTW, if custom tanks are so easy to build, why have other people build your half dozen? You should just put them together yourself since there's no "true" skill involved. Oh, and do a rimless tank since the math is so easy. I'm sure you'll know how to calculate the thickness of the glass and add in the engineering safety factor of 5.
[/QUOTE]

That comparison just doesn't hold water. lol. No one has suggested that tank building takes no skill, but to compare it to finish carpentry, at least with those points, is weak. Yep, laying out silicone to the right thickness is probably not easy, and checking a chart to determine glass thickness takes some measure of intelligence, but lets be real, a tank is five panels glued together, cut some holes, add a brace or two and viola! Finish carpenters make multiple measurements, multiple cuts, employ multiple joining methods and then worry about finish. A tank is made in a matter of hours (curing time aside). A cabinet takes many days.

No, I'm not a finish carpenter, but I do admire their work and the skill required.

 

[NeveSSL]

lol... Really?

Speaking of not holding water, why are you bringing finish carpentry into this? He said carpenter. Why would you change what was being discussed? That, sir, is a weak point.

I was addressing the points overgrown brought up specifically.

Again, why have someone else do it if its so easy?

BTW, good carpenters build furniture in a matter of hours, too.

Brandon

 

[acesq]

Let's agree to disagree. I do like the Reef Savvy tanks. They are top of the line aquariums. But the craftsmanship required to produce them does not compare to top of the line cabinetry.

 

[NeveSSL]

Sure. I don't think anyone said the craftsmanship was compared to top of the line cabinetry. It was compared to carpentry in general. That is what I disagree with completely.

If you enjoy good carpentry, check this out. THIS is a completely different level of work from what 99.999% of us do.

Brandon

 

[dkeller_nc]

Among other things, I am a woodworker with a good deal of skill. I build high-end furniture, and teach others to do it.

What I'd tell you is that while it sounds straightforward to build a box out of 5 panels (whether they be panels of glass or of wood) is not easy, at least to get a result that has no visible defects and is worthy of displaying in your living room.

Glass makes it all the more difficult - I can hand-plane a slightly out-size member of that 5-panel group in 3-thousandths steps until it fits all the others exactly. With glass, the only way to do that is with abrasives - you can use a edge sander with a hard aluminum oxide belt, or a really expensive CNC controlled diamond machine.

Either way, to get a really first-class, quality aquarium that not only holds water, but is absolutely 90 degrees on every corner, all edges are polished, all panes line up on the top, and with no silicone slop anywhere takes a good deal of skill and hard work. That's one reason that a marineland tank is $600 and the same size rimless Elos is $3000.

 

[NeveSSL]

Thank you for that insight, dkeller. Good, first-hand info.

Brandon

 

[Overgrown]

Among other things, I am a woodworker with a good deal of skill. I build high-end furniture, and teach others to do it.

What I'd tell you is that while it sounds straightforward to build a box out of 5 panels (whether they be panels of glass or of wood) is not easy, at least to get a result that has no visible defects and is worthy of displaying in your living room.

Glass makes it all the more difficult - I can hand-plane a slightly out-size member of that 5-panel group in 3-thousandths steps until it fits all the others exactly. With glass, the only way to do that is with abrasives - you can use a edge sander with a hard aluminum oxide belt, or a really expensive CNC controlled diamond machine.

Either way, to get a really first-class, quality aquarium that not only holds water, but is absolutely 90 degrees on every corner, all edges are polished, all panes line up on the top, and with no silicone slop anywhere takes a good deal of skill and hard work. That's one reason that a marineland tank is $600 and the same size rimless Elos is $3000.

Very true. This is all encompassed in the previous point: those diamond bevels? Completed at the glass shop. Panes cut to spec? Again, the job of the glass shop.. As Acesq pointed out, the tank manufacturer is simply piecing the panes together and cutting some holes.
Glass is glass is glass..

 

[Overgrown]

[QUOTE=NeveSSL;

Again, why have someone else do it if its so easy?


Brandon[/
A bit maxed out when it comes to tank needs, and am soon remodeling the new house to accommodate the 225 upstairs. Building a tank is merely a blip on the radar at this point. But that's the plan for the next frag tank. Am going to have them mitre the edges instead of the standard 90 angles (at the recommendation of local craftsman guru& forum member Clearwater, ) and of course have them bevel the edges. Panes will be bonded with RTV103.
I'll be the first to admit I'll have to dial in the silicone beading skill before even attempting.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Very true. This is all encompassed in the previous point: those diamond bevels? Completed at the glass shop. Panes cut to spec? Again, the job of the glass shop.. As Acesq pointed out, the tank manufacturer is simply piecing the panes together and cutting some holes.
Glass is glass is glass..

You are right that polishing can be completed at a glass shop. But you also would find that a glass shop cannot guarantee the precision needed for aquarium manufacture. The industry standard for glass cutting and milling is within 1/8" of width/length/height. An advanced glass shop can usually get it a bit closer to nominal spec, but they won't promise it.

So if you're building tanks, you can simply accept this imprecision and try to make up for it in the silicone joints. But the high-end manufacturers go far beyond this - they grind and polish the panels to a very high degree of precision, and this costs serious money.