Refugium question about the flow

Beefy_Reefy

New member
I read that it needs slow flow. I had a pipe going to bottom but figured the top was stagnant since I don't want the water flowing over the top baffle (too much noise). So I made a change. Will this work for flow or do I need more water pushing bottom?
Thanks.

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Who told you you wanted slow flow in your fuge? Well they were not well informed. The flow rate through the fuge should be fast enough to prevent detritus fallout--or it will turn into a garbage dump--full tank flow is not too fast. I can't really tell what you have going on here, but I don't think you are getting any mixing or decent flow through your fuge with the mods you have made.

If you get noise from water going over your baffles, then your baffles are too high.
 
I used a bulkhead to drain from fuge to return. You think I should just let it overflow top baffle? I was worried about snails falling in return section also. So I went with that bulkhead drain. I may have made the baffle too high but was trying to make fuge as big as possible. My protein skimmer is huge so that first section took the most room ;/

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Just one of the few threads I was reading about slow flow. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1749688. I just saw some more that say high flow. Sooo. I guess I'll be changing this up. Thanks.
 
After the skimmer section, the return section is next. The fuge is the least important section in the sump. You need to lower the baffles. The sump should only run ~ half full.
 
The left baffles are at the recommended height for my protein skimmer. I can't lower anything. This is it. Just trying to figure out my fuge flow/and not letting top of water be stagnant there. It's a 40g breeder sump. Fuge will have a DSB with some rock rubble and chaeto.
 
If you are going to do a DSB, fill the thing up to within a couple inches of the top, flow a couple hundred gallons per hour across the top, and over the baffle. Leave the chaeto and rock out of it. If not wanting to fill it up with sand, then leave the sand and rock out and run just chaeto in it, and kick the flow up as high as you can, no matter what though, it will be lower than the main flow. Comes with the territory (fuge on the end.) The top will only go stagnate if it does not get renewed. That is why over the baffle. It may get noisy, but please remember, I did not design the sump. The highest I would go in a 40 breeder sump with a baffle is perhaps 12" - 13" max. That extra volume you have in the fuge is basically useless. As far as skimmers go, the water level is most always given as a range 8" - 10" no need to go the max, when the minimum works exactly the same. Looks to be 8" or 9" hard to tell.

Don't get me wrong, it is a nice sump. It just needs a bit of tweaking. If you really want some more volume: go to a 50 breeder, or a longer tank. :)
 
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Thanks for the info. This was just a fun project. My first time DIY setup. Dual 40g breeders and stand. Drilling tank, siliconing baffles, stand and plumbing all first time. Hopefully it works out. And you're right baffles are about 8 1/2". My stand is ugly but built like a tank. Just wish I would have made it way bigger for more options.

Is rubble rock just a detritus trap in fuge? I want to grow a ton of pods. Would chaeto alone be good enough? Still deciding on sand or rock. Or just chaeto like you suggest. Hmmm
 
It took years to get rid of bio balls. Rubble rock is nothing but bio balls. Surface area to produce nitrates--just like bio balls. Sand alone, (as I described) or chaeto alone. The sand alone is a better bet than the chaeto. The sump is for nutrient export, not growing pods.
 
flow rate should be at least 10 times the coulme of you fuge tank and enough to keep the ball of cheato suspened and turning atround
 
I just finished my sump made with a 40 gallon breeder tank and my setup is very similar to yours. My baffles are 8" high for the bubble trap and 12" for the refugium. I was going to put a deep sand bed and live rock with cheto, which is what I have in my current tank. I have not heard about choosing between sand or cheto and not using live rock in a refugium. The main reason for my refugium is to grow pods for my tank and nutrient export via the cheto. What am I missing?
 
> Who told you you wanted slow flow in your fuge?

ah, but if we call the slow flow fuge a detritus settling zone does that make it better? having a single garbage dump makes it easy to clean, but I guess one does need to clean it. It certainty is better than running dirty socks that accelerates the organic absorption.

the real question might be is how slow the flow need to be to qualify as an engineered garbage dump.
 
I just finished my sump made with a 40 gallon breeder tank and my setup is very similar to yours. My baffles are 8" high for the bubble trap and 12" for the refugium. I was going to put a deep sand bed and live rock with cheto, which is what I have in my current tank. I have not heard about choosing between sand or cheto and not using live rock in a refugium. The main reason for my refugium is to grow pods for my tank and nutrient export via the cheto. What am I missing?

You won't be hearing it a lot, till it becomes less of a fad to toss everything in the sump, because growing pods is good. But then if your system is running and well managed, pods are growing in the main tank. So one would ask then what is the point of growing them in the "fuge," when the object of a sump is export. Pretty much a universal notion, as "and export" is usually in most folks "excuses."

What function will rock rubble or other "live" rock perform in the sump? Bio balls have one purpose: a substrate for colonization of nitrifying bacteria. Such objects are scorned in the hobby today, as being "nitrate factories," which they are. But we don't want that do we. So we toss rock in the sump instead, which is strictly a substrate for the colonization of nitrifying bacteria. (Just the same as it is in the main tank--except you can stick corals to it and make an aquascape with it.) If you really look at it, it is completely pointless to put rock in the sump. We want to get rid of nitrate, not produce it, right?

Sand is a very effective substrate for the reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas. But the use of it, if you do not want it to turn into a garbage dump, is rather strict. In terms of flow rate (SPS flow rates to prevent detritus fall out.) Chaeto (more appropriately macro algae, as Chaetomorpha is just one of many) utilizes nitrates. So they are both "export" methods, that are somewhat redundant if used together, although the sand is much more efficient--if done right. So if you use sand, the right way, macro is pointless--and there is not any room for it (or rock) anyway. If you use macro, then that violates one of the provisos for an RDSB, which is nothing else in it but sand and water. All very long, mostly circular arguments.

Many are in a "pod" mania these days, however too many cannot deal with the dissolved organics already present, let alone adding more bio load by intent, which simply increases the burden on the rest of the system.

Only one method deals with the full cycle, dissolved organics > free Nitrogen: the DSB. So what is more advantageous to the system? Growing pods? Or dealing with the real problem in marine systems: dissolved organics? If you want to grow food, start a phytoplankton culture, but oops it takes some copper......

ah, but if we call the slow flow fuge a detritus settling zone does that make it better? having a single garbage dump makes it easy to clean, but I guess one does need to clean it. It certainty is better than running dirty socks that accelerates the organic absorption.

the real question might be is how slow the flow need to be to qualify as an engineered garbage dump.

A circular argument. Collection of detritus, whether it be in a sock, or settling area produces the same results: Higher levels of dissolved organics, heavier bio-load, heavier burden on the system. One would be more inclined to replace a sock, than clean out their fuge, and--they don't clean the socks often enough: everyday.
 
Thank you for the explanation Uncleof6. How deep of a sand bed would I need to be effective? My refugium section is 11"x12"x17", is that sufficient for a 120 gallon tank?
 
A 5 gallon bucket will do nicely, filled with 60lbs of sand. (To within a few inches of the top,) for up to a 120 gallon tank. With the size of your "area" it will be larger, (assuming the water level is 17" --kinda high) but fill it up with sand to within a few inches of the surface, give it good flow (to keep detritus from falling out,) ~ no light, and forget it. It will do what it is intended to do. I would imagine your nitrates would drop to ~ 0, in a month or so, and stay there. Do not feed it from a drain line (no flow control.)
 
> Collection of detritus, whether it be in a sock, or settling area produces the same results: Higher levels of dissolved organics.

If the method of collection allows for more export perhaps we would have lower dissolved organics.

I'm not sure collecting detritus means there will be more created, perhaps that's more related to what's inputted into the system.

so given a fixed rate of detritus production comparing various methods of export are

amount collected at time of export * number of times export process runs.


> would be more inclined to replace a sock, than clean out their fuge

that's the key... so bio-balls and an automated water changing systems could be better than many other systems because of the number of times export process runs is so much greater :-).
 
You will find that water changes work for finite issues, issues without a continuous influx, and for replenishing constituents thought to be depleted or needed. They are not very effective for larger continuous issues. It is related to the go half-way somewhere and then go half-way again, and continue, and you never get there. Or perhaps the further ahead you go the more behind you are.

What is the big issue with marine systems are the dissolved organics, and detritus perhaps another, being it is still biologically active. It is a food source for detritivores such as polycheates and stars, and scavangers.

Being collected, it settles on a substrate where the bacteria are, (they aren't in the water column in great numbers,) and increases the production of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. And so it continues. There is nothing wrong with collecting it, if you have nothing in the system that will consume it. It just needs to be removed often. Like everyday.
 
Uncleo What do you think about having the tank drain in to skimmer section use the flow out of the skimmer to spin chaeto then move to the return pump split in to a DSB back into the return pump
 
Respectfully disagree...

Respectfully disagree...

I am a proponent of the low flow method through the entire sump (3-5x tank volume)... Before everyone freaks out, let me explain...

We all know that ALL filters have their maximum capacity, filter socks, floss, canisters, all fail when pushed too hard... Fuges are in a unique position in that they don't fail by not passing the volume of water, they fail by simply not purifying water... Just as skimmers work better the longer water is in contact with air bubbles, macro extracts more nutrients the longer it's in contact with water, hence low flow = more efficiency...

If you want to use macros, which i don't see why you wouldn't, free food, nutrient export, and pH stabilization, I believe low flow is the key... Not to mention the lower flow through your sump makes your skimmer more efficient too, but that is another thread...

And what is wrong with detritus settlement? an easy place to clean it out from? isn't that essentially a filter sock? and plus, it settles on sand which has organisms that can break it down... Low flow is the way to go...
 
I am a proponent of the low flow method through the entire sump (3-5x tank volume)... Before everyone freaks out, let me explain...

We all know that ALL filters have their maximum capacity, filter socks, floss, canisters, all fail when pushed too hard... Fuges are in a unique position in that they don't fail by not passing the volume of water, they fail by simply not purifying water... Just as skimmers work better the longer water is in contact with air bubbles, macro extracts more nutrients the longer it's in contact with water, hence low flow = more efficiency...

This actually is not true. Whether the flow is fast or slow, the macro are only going to utilize what they need, the rest will remain. In actual practice, the uptake of nutrients is the same, fast or slow. There are other real issues to consider, than forum generated myth. :)

If you want to use macros, which i don't see why you wouldn't, free food, nutrient export, and pH stabilization, I believe low flow is the key... Not to mention the lower flow through your sump makes your skimmer more efficient too, but that is another thread...

This is also not true. How fast the water moves past the skimmer, has no affect on the skimmer performance. Fast or slow flow past the skimmer, the skimmer is going to remove the same amount of organic compounds--and overall only ~ 30% of the TOC. What affects skimmer performance is the flow through the skimmer, not past it. Just remember, no matter how slow the flow, more water is going to flow past the skimmer, than through it.

And what is wrong with detritus settlement? an easy place to clean it out from? isn't that essentially a filter sock? and plus, it settles on sand which has organisms that can break it down... Low flow is the way to go...

Again, only true in a limited way. What organisms (detrivores) are in your tank which will consume detritus that has penetrated the sand bed? NONE, unless you put them there by intent. That means a full blow living sand bed, which will consume the first several months of a new tank--if not longer. This life will not naturally form in a closed system marine aquarium. Most hobbyist do not have the patience for such an undertaking, and the volume of erroneous negative information will put them off the project very quickly.

Again, as I said before, there is nothing wrong with collecting the "garbage." But here again, the information is mythified. "Eh, you only need to clean it once a week." Wrong, every day. The longer it sits in the sock, the more problems it creates. It becomes a maintenance issue.

You mentioned pH stabilization. That is predominantly a question of gas exchange. Getting CO2 out of the system, and getting O2 into the system. but they do not behave the same. CO2 will get into the water, even if it is sitting still. Because CO2 is far more soluble in water than O2. You have to actively do something to get O2 into the water. This is where breaking the surface tension of the water, and surface skimming/renewal, come into play--and this is directly affected by flow rate. At any rate, you can see where I will go with this. Macro helps with oxygenation, but by looking at the pH stabilization problems experienced by many in the hobby, it does not help enough.

I am not going to get into the myths and misapplied physics concerning skimmers and gas exchange.
 
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