Regular pump turned in to a needle wheel

chevegan

New member
First off I don't know if anyone else has ever tried this, but I wanted to. Let me just say it doesn't work. The impeller gets bogged with air and doesn't recover without it be turned off and back on again. There must be a way to make a regular power head into a needle wheel type. Anyone else have any experiences or thoughts on this? Possibly someone who knows the engineering behind it. I was hoping to make a regular venturi skimmers pump a mesh mod.

What is the main difference that I'm missing here. I'm holding the pumps side by side and am at a lost. Why does the needle wheel pump while the regular pump bog??
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9247461#post9247461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmarzullo
exactly what is the mod you did to make it a needle wheel?

I suppose the heading is a little misleading. I didn't actually succeed at anything. For air input I placed airline tubing on the suction end of the pump. Problem was when air got in it stayed there and bogged the impeller. I haven't tried adding mesh to it at all yet (i will but first) I just want to know the physical difference in the actual pumps that allow it to continue pumping water without it bogging up with air.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9255713#post9255713 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
What size class of pump are you trying to mod for a needlewheel?
300gph... 600gph... 900gph... larger?

500gph. And to answer digitalifes question, it's for a custom DIY protein skimmer. Don't know which tank to even use it for at the moment.
 
The needlewheel doesnt bog because it doesnt have the big vanes that a normal impellar has. It doesnt cavitate.


Its a pretty easy mod to do.... remember though, its not just the needlewheel that makes a good skimmer pump. There are other factors involved.
 
Okay, let me narrow things down here. Ive modded many pumps into streams and needlewheel/meshwheels, and have a good deal of insight into making these pumps by now.

Important factors for NW pumps:
-volute, or impeller shroud diameter and thickness. this is where most of the actual mixing & bubble chopping happens for a NW, not at the NW/meshwheel.
-intake and output diameter. A NW pump by default becomes a low-pressure pump, so many high head pumps, with their smaller inlets and outlets and higher speed impellers (to generate and conserve centrifugal force/pressure)... can actually be outdone by smaller low-pressure pumps that have larger intakes and outlets.
Thats why I want to narrow things down a bit here... a 500gph pump is still pretty wide range. The new ATI/Tunze needlewheels are only 40w pumps, yet pull 1000 lph! thanks to their large shrouds and output/intake diameters.
-impeller diameter, thickness, speed: speed plays the most important role... but in reverse... too much speed works against you. Yet another reason why low-pressure (as in low speed) pumps can work better than high-pressure ones, the faster pumps can be so fast that that disk of foam or disk or needles which replaces the impeller of the pump gets spun so fast that to the water and air... its pretty much just a spinning solid disk of plastic... not alot of 'bite' left to actually move any water.
-intake venturi. Actually, not that important as many people think. See, with venturis and mazzeis (and becketts), the more velocity you can achieve within the venturi, the more air gets introduced. Not so with Needlewheels. There is a threshold of air intake which is not determined by the venturi, but rather by the pump itself. See, on a beckett, the more air that the beckett doesnt change anything for the pump itself, as its 'downstream', but with a needlwheel, if the velocity of the intake venturi increases to the point where there is more air being taken in than the pump can actually mix, the pump chokes. The best venturi is actually nothing more than a valve on the intake, with the air line introduced right after the valve. This way, you can adjust the water pressure... restricting the water to the point where the most air gets taken in, but not so much that the pump cant draw in enough water to continue to actually move that mixture.

Maybe there is some detail in the above that will help you... otherwise your best bet is to post some pics of your attempts..

What pump were you trying to convert exactly? 500gph? What... a mag5? I suppose I should have been more specific, as there are 500gph pumps out there that are 25 watts, and others that are 55 watts, and the wattage has more to do with the pump's potential as a NW than the pump's gph rating. There are some pumps in that class that can pull 1000lph or more (red dragon, tunze, etc) and others that can only do 500lph. So please post pics, or tell us what pump you are trying to convert... thats a good place to start... have to make sure the pump is a good candidate.
 
it's a 32w generic overseas pump. I'm starting disassembly now. let me see what I can and cant figure out

I'll document it with pics best I can.
 
Here we go

Here we go

First off here is the generic pump

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/chevegan/

HPIM1359.jpg


Next I took a generic dremel with a cutting tool to make the slots

HPIM1361.jpg


I sanded them down

HPIM1362.jpg

HPIM1363.jpg


Next used a razor blade to cut off a square of rough glass algae scraper mesh.

HPIM1364.jpg


I couldn't find my small zip ties so instead used my generic waxed dental floss (which btw I always use to tie down frags!)

HPIM1366.jpg


Cut the strainer end off to leave the 3/4" section available, I use the strainer later

HPIM1368.jpg
 
Attach a 90 degree 3/4" with a piece of pvc. I used a 90 because the angle will provide a boost in velocity helping pull in more air.

HPIM1369.jpg


Drilled it right where I figure is the greatest amount of water velocity and pulled the air line in a bit so that it's actually running up toward the impeller. This again is to achieve the most amount of low pressure area causing more air to be sucked in

HPIM1370.jpg


And FINALLY the finished result. Oh and I inserted the strainer in the pvc end inside out. For 2 purposes 1) strains out unwanted things :) and 2) increases water velocity by decreasing open flow.

What do you think ;)

HPIM1371.jpg
 
LOL my venturi skimmer has never seen so much foam. Since the skimmer is a shortie (have very little room under my 20g) I had to put an adjustable valve on the intake of the pump to reduce the total lph. It's insane I'm telling you. Kept me busy and we all learned something! (well most of us anyway)
 
Thanks for the thread Hahn. There is more solid info about pump modding packed in that one thread than anything I have seen in the whole time I've been on RC. Not to hijack, but I would like to do the AC802 mod for my skimmer just as you described. I can only get it about 10" under water in my sump. Will that truly hurt performance enough to not make it worth my while to do this mod. I am currently running a meshed pump on skimmer that came w/ the unit. It pulls only 6 or 7 scfm. I'd love to upgrade.
 
here is what I want to know, why is my pump now pulling more lph? I figured I would actually hinder the total output my chopping up the blades. It's wayyy too much now for the shortie skimmer I had it hooked up to. Other than that thought the thing is really amazing. I love that I didn't have to do much customizing. Making it easier for the average joe. I'm figuring with needle point mesh it will significantly reduce the total flow which is what I need to achieve. I initially put a air valve to control air input but realized it was totally useless in my application. So far keeping the stock parameters on the intake side made this a more efficient pump. And the 90 builds more than enough velocity it seems.
 
Last edited:
Cant tell for sure, but one of the common beliefs is that the needlewheel is where all the mixing happens... this isnt really the case. Most of the mixing of the air/water happens as the mix spins around the shroud of the pump before it exits. Thats why you dont really need a large diameter needlewheel, just a larger diameter shroud.

The purpose of the NW/meshwheel is to be able to 'bite' into the incoming air/water mixture. Imagine things slow down a bit here, and that due to the suction, the pump just sucked some water and a pocket of air. If the pump just has large impeller blades, the pocket of air that is taken in will slip in between the blades, but as a large bubble. This disrupts that impeller blade's capacity. With mesh or needlewheels, the air/water intake gets chopped up into a mix... no large pockets of air to disrupt the impeller's intake. The larger pockets of air are turned into smaller ones... and the 6-8 larger impeller blades are turned into 30, 40, or 50+ mini impeller blades (needles) to help move that chopped up mixture.

I compare it to be alot like sending food down the garbage disposal.... its alot easier for the disposal to send small pieces of food down the drain than it is to try and send large chunks.

Anyways... thats the basic idea. At this point, the more pins/blades you have on that needlewheel, the more you will pull.
 
Back
Top