Reverse trickle/undergravel

[perksr11@gmail.]

Hi all,

Want people to think outside the box on this idea. I put a pond in this summer with a bog/wetland filter where water slowly flows upward through layers of different size rock. About 10” of 5-6”, 10” of 4-5”, 10” of 2-3”, and topped off by 10” of pea gravel. It is filled with different big plants that soak up all the nutrients and keeps my pond crystal clear. It is 20% the size of the main pond which is what they recommend. It created massive amount of surface area for bacteria and keeps my levels in check. There is a vertical pipe that goes to the bottom of the bog and is a clean out chamber for any sediment/detritus that settles, I can just drop a pump down it and clean it out.

Here we go….thinking of trying it on my next tank. Same concept where water comes down from the tank into my man made sump. Water flows slowly upward through 6” of 3-4” rock chunks, 6” of 2-3”, 6” of 1-2”, 6”larger crushed coral, and finally 4” of fine sand. Top of fugium will be loaded with mangroves and macro to soak up all those nutrients. I’ll still have a vertical pipe that come up so I can drop a tube down it and suck out any detritus that might settle. Size should be about 20% of the tank volume. I’ll still have a chamber for my protein skimmer, reactor etc.

Looking for feedback, both pros and cons. I know every tank is different and people have had success in many ways. I’ve had successful tanks for 20 years using just a refugium and some activated carbon. This is a hobby that’s always trying new things, so here is mine.

 

[kharmaguru]

Hi all,

Want people to think outside the box on this idea. I put a pond in this summer with a bog/wetland filter where water slowly flows upward through layers of different size rock. About 10” of 5-6”, 10” of 4-5”, 10” of 2-3”, and topped off by 10” of pea gravel. It is filled with different big plants that soak up all the nutrients and keeps my pond crystal clear. It is 20% the size of the main pond which is what they recommend. It created massive amount of surface area for bacteria and keeps my levels in check. There is a vertical pipe that goes to the bottom of the bog and is a clean out chamber for any sediment/detritus that settles, I can just drop a pump down it and clean it out.

Here we go….thinking of trying it on my next tank. Same concept where water comes down from the tank into my man made sump. Water flows slowly upward through 6” of 3-4” rock chunks, 6” of 2-3”, 6” of 1-2”, 6”larger crushed coral, and finally 4” of fine sand. Top of fugium will be loaded with mangroves and macro to soak up all those nutrients. I’ll still have a vertical pipe that come up so I can drop a tube down it and suck out any detritus that might settle. Size should be about 20% of the tank volume. I’ll still have a chamber for my protein skimmer, reactor etc.

Looking for both positive and negative. I know every tank is different and people have had success in many ways. I’ve had successful tanks for 20 years using just a refugium and some activated carbon. This is a hobby that’s always trying new things, so here is mine.

So is it like a slow version of a reverse undergravel filter? @Paul B has or does run one.

 

[perksr11@gmail.]

So is it like a slow version of a reverse undergravel filter? @Paul B has or does run one.

Exactly, I’ll prob still use the under gravel plates so there’s empty space at the bottom for the water to flow under it and up through the rock layers. With the upward flow of water and ability to clean out whatever might rest under that plate from time to time there shouldn’t be too much settling under there.

 

[griss]

So is it like a slow version of a reverse undergravel filter? @Paul B has or does run one.

Yep, Paul is still running a reverse UGF.

@perksr11@gmail. this is an interesting idea. Please post pics if you decide to pursue this build. I'd love to follow the progress.

 

[jason2459]

I still run a RUGF as well but in my sump.

 

[perksr11@gmail.]

Yep, Paul is still running a reverse UGF.

@perksr11@gmail. this is an interesting idea. Please post pics if you decide to pursue this build. I'd love to follow the progress.

I still run a RUGF as well but in my sump.

That’s where mine would be, is yours similar to what i laid out? How long had yours been up for….any issues?

 

[jason2459]

When I had my 55g it was in the main tank and I used dolomite to cover it.




When I upgraded to my 180 and got a sump it moved to the sump


Here's my sump design


The RUGF/refugium section after I installed the baffles


And here it is in place before I covered it in that dolomite, rubble, and rock

 

[Paul B]

Yes, my reverse undergravel filter is running 50 years in a similar set up. I have a few recommendations.
I feel the 2, 3 and 4" rock is way to big for a tank and won't offer enough surface area. Remember all the filtration takes place on the outside of the rock so the inside of the rocks is basically wasted. Also, eventually the sand will make it's way through all those layers and settle on the bottom.

It may be fine for a year but any moving of the substrate will push that sand down. I would eliminate the sand completely and just stick with the crushed coral.

I experimented for years before I finally decided on using only dolomite for substrate as any layering of different sizes of rock will mix together leaving the sand on the bottom and the larger rocks will migrate to the top.

This is the beach behind my house. Notice all the big rocks on the surface? The sand migrated under the rocks pushing them up. Even that house size boulder. You would think the weight of rocks would keep them down, but it works in reverse because the fine sand gets under the larger rocks pushing them up.



In a tank, I feel we should use the same size "gravel" all the way through because eventually we will mix it up as will the creatures.
I also would not use any sand with a reverse undergravel set up as you are proposing.

Just my opinion of course and I can sell you that boulder in the picture. Shipping is optional.

My gravel (which is almost 50 years old) is about the size of rice, as you can see here.


OK, If someone can fix those pictures, that would make more sense.

 

[kharmaguru]

OK, If someone can fix those pictures, that would make more sense.

@Paul B , I think the photobucket images get converted to .webp which the forum software does not support.

 

[griss]

Yes, my reverse undergravel filter is running 50 years in a similar set up. I have a few recommendations.
I feel the 2, 3 and 4" rock is way to big for a tank and won't offer enough surface area. Remember all the filtration takes place on the outside of the rock so the inside of the rocks is basically wasted. Also, eventually the sand will make it's way through all those layers and settle on the bottom.

It may be fine for a year but any moving of the substrate will push that sand down. I would eliminate the sand completely and just stick with the crushed coral.

I experimented for years before I finally decided on using only dolomite for substrate as any layering of different sizes of rock will mix together leaving the sand on the bottom and the larger rocks will migrate to the top.

This is the beach behind my house. Notice all the big rocks on the surface? The sand migrated under the rocks pushing them up. Even that house size boulder. You would think the weight of rocks would keep them down, but it works in reverse because the fine sand gets under the larger rocks pushing them up.



In a tank, I feel we should use the same size "gravel" all the way through because eventually we will mix it up as will the creatures.
I also would not use any sand with a reverse undergravel set up as you are proposing.

Just my opinion of course and I can sell you that boulder in the picture. Shipping is optional.

My gravel (which is almost 50 years old) is about the size of rice, as you can see here.


OK, If someone can fix those pictures, that would make more sense.

Interesting, if I click reply, the pics show up as I'm typing my response. ETA - But when I click to post my reply, they disappear??? @JohnL any thoughts on this? Here's what I'm seeing as I edit this response.

 

[wvned]

I think the issue is how photobucket handles hosting.
I found this interesting
Photobucket does all the work, optimizing your images by automatically adjusting their size to the device being used to view them. How easy is that?
So you get some kind of dynamic link that changes depending how you look at it. That is what I have been seeing.
Also you have to pay a little more to get links hosted.

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B , I think the photobucket images get converted to .webp which the forum software does not support.

Great. (I have no idea what that means) My brain doesn't work in "webp" or any random letters. I need to see gears, beams, wood, metal, brass etc.

 

[perksr11@gmail.]

Paul, I appreciate the response! I was thinking of using 1” rubble, 1/2” rubble, larger sized crushed coral, then fine sand but your point remains and is prob still true. I was thinking the upward flow of water through the layers would help reduce that.

Your deep sand bed is all the same size crushed coral, in your display tank, and has water flowing up through it? If so, how are you pushing the tank water under the plates (if that’s what you have on the bottom) and up through your substrate?

 

[Paul B]

I was thinking the upward flow of water through the layers would help reduce that.

No, not at all. The flow won't affect the rocks or gravel at all as it is spread over the entire bed and is very little in any one place.

Your deep sand bed is all the same size crushed coral, in your display tank, and has water flowing up through it? If so, how are you pushing the tank water under the plates (if that’s what you have on the bottom) and up through your substrate?

I don't use a DSB. My gravel is about 2" deep. I built a manifold out of an old HOB filter and water is pumped into it from a powerhead very slowly so that only 150 GPH goes into each of 3 tubes that go to the UG filter.

The tubes all go straight down under the manifold and bend at the gravel to go to the 3 UG filter plates.

This is an old manifold I used to have. I built a sexier one now but it is the same principle. Water goes down those 3 tubes at the bottom and the thing sits above the tank.
Make believe you can see the thing here if it doesn't show.

 

[JohnL]

Interesting, if I click reply, the pics show up as I'm typing my response. ETA - But when I click to post my reply, they disappear??? @JohnL any thoughts on this? Here's what I'm seeing as I edit this response.

I've been puzzled by this also.

 

[griss]

I've been puzzled by this also.

Weird, the pics are now showing in Paul's post.

 

[Paul B]

I've been puzzled by this also.

I'm puzzled by everything here. But I'm old.

 

[kharmaguru]

So I can't see this image in Paul's recent post either, but if I copy the link address and put it in my reply, it appears. If I select the preview button it disappears and replaces it with the

. I'm not sure if it's a photobucket thing or a xenforo thing but it's weird.

 

[wvned]

If I copy the link there is no picture associated with it. If I try to download it, it fails, If I open it in another tab it appears and then I can perform the other actions and they work.

My RUG filters are driven by Maxijet pumps I attach to where the riser tubes for a standard set of under gravel plates go. I have them in my 55 gallon freshwater right now. I make a part from a CPVC plumbing fitting that attaches the pump to the plate.

 

[Paul B]

If I copy the link there is no picture associated with it. If I try to download it, it fails, If I open it in another tab it appears and then I can perform the other actions and they work.

I don't know, but I think this forum should do what all the other forums do, whatever that is. I have been on this forum since they invented the thing and it's only in the last 2 years or so that my pictures got screwed up. Maybe Photobucket changed something.

Am I the only one with these issues here?

Make believe there is a picture of me here of the Thinker by Rodan. (google it)