Zacktosterone
Active member
That's what I'm thinking as well
ridiculous ich outbreak!! need help
- Thread starter Zacktosterone
- Start date
That's what I'm thinking as well
avandss
I'm hooked
that is not the actual picture of his fish.
it would help to see a real picture.
a proper qt procedure is one of the most important parts of the hobby, its cruel and horrible to think that some people do not QT
also Snorvich & others are here to help, they have many years of experience and i would listen to any advice they have to offer.
Zacktosterone
Active member
I would LOVE their advice not their sarcasm. I think its ich. I will take pictures tonight. I noticed a lot less dots on the fish so I'm going to transfer again tonight.
well then, i'm confused. not to get in a peein' contest with you but only 2 months ago (your other thread that steve referenced), you said you NEVER qt anything. so, you didn't qt in august but you do now?
Dummyforclownfi
New member
Not to get in a peein match but then you post this?
Anyhow I don't think it would hurt to do TT in case it is ich. Hard to know without a pic but you got nothing to lose.
Zacktosterone
Active member
No... Ive always quarantined fish, I've never not. Well maybe when I just started. I was playing devils advocate to set the stage to get as many polls as possible. I didn't expect to get ridiculed. I don't have a single fish in my tank that is not quarantined or medicated. I've got zero disease. I was trying to keep cover but started losing it near the end. I did get great poll results. But no, to answer your questiom ive always quarantined. I've just never dealt with velvet. I don't think it is now that I'm looking at the fish
sreefs
Member
This is a great forum, but I wish guys like you would quit playing some dumb game. I don't get what you are trying to find out. Again quit wasting mine and everyone else's time.
Zacktosterone
Active member
This is a part of another thread but your right. I'm sure there could of been another way but that thread is closed and done.
I'll get a picture asap
Zacktosterone
Active member
ReeFreak1
New member
Tank transfer is way too stressful on fish let alone having three trangs in a small 20 gallon QT. If your fish is too stressed, chances are they are not gonna make it. I have had great success with hyposalinity. It increases the amount of oxygen in the water so the fish is less stressed. It also requires no poisonous copper, which also prevents the extra stress. It helps the fish fight off disease by preserving the fish energy spent towards salt exertion.
You need to have a refractometer and drop the salinity down by adding fresh water until you get to 1.09 over the course of a couple of days. It would be better to drop over longer time, but in your case a rapid drop is required or the fish aren't going to make it. monitor the ammonia and keep under control. Once all signs of ick are gone and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week), continue hypo for 4-6 weeks.
You need to have a refractometer and drop the salinity down by adding fresh water until you get to 1.09 over the course of a couple of days. It would be better to drop over longer time, but in your case a rapid drop is required or the fish aren't going to make it. monitor the ammonia and keep under control. Once all signs of ick are gone and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week), continue hypo for 4-6 weeks.
Reefer07
New member
Hey I don't wanna take over the thread but I figured I'd post here since I'm having the same issue with a small 3" sailfin I just bought in my 90. There are also many threads about ich too. Only other tankmates are pair of clowns and blackcap basslet. An before I get the sailfin outgrowing the tank speal I am moving this upcoming summer/fall and with the move will be getting a larger tank or will let the tang go at that point if I have to.
Anyways, the fish was qt with copper for over a month and I have never had ich before. I have a standard 90 gallon with about 120 lbs of live rock and no sand at all, barebottom here. Tank is all good, no ammonia, nitrites or anything. Phosphate is almost undetectable to. I bought him this past Friday and he looked great. My friend owns a local LFS and I tell him what I want, he gets it and wt it for me. An I'm not talking a "friend" from going to this LFS....im talking long term childhood friend before he even owned the store so I trust him.
Anyways, 2 days ago I noticed like two small white spots on the tail. Yesterday, I come home, pop the lights on and this thing is COVERED!!! Overnite....I've never seen anything like it. However, since I got him Friday and even still this thing eats like a rabid animal. It eats everything and anything so I grabbed some garlic yesterday. I think the only thing I really have goin for me is no sand bed. I have already bumped up the temp to 81 and slowly lowering SG to 1.019. Was at .023, brought down to .021-ish yesterday. The tang is not scratching at all or rubbing against anything and is actually acting quite normal in comparison with all other sailfins I have seen.
I am going to keep bringing SG down with my refractometer to 1.019 as stated.
I guess my question is how hard is hyposal as I have never done it and what do I have to watch out for?
Also, if I were to just say **** it, is my LR really ruined for good? Even if ai were to run cupramine afterwards which I already am running....??
This is a FO tank but I do have some really nice rock in there that I would like to use for a reef down the road.
Also, on a side note, just a quick question. After reading all these other threads about ich: say you pull fish and qt in a copper tank. They get cured. Now if ich always stays in a tank and only outbreaks when fish get stressed, what is to say that as soon as I were to drop fish back in my DT that they just get ich again? Maybe I just haven't read enough yet. I just find it weird the fish are acting totally normal and they got infected so bad. The clowns are fine but the basslet is definitely showing some spots now too.
Anyways, the fish was qt with copper for over a month and I have never had ich before. I have a standard 90 gallon with about 120 lbs of live rock and no sand at all, barebottom here. Tank is all good, no ammonia, nitrites or anything. Phosphate is almost undetectable to. I bought him this past Friday and he looked great. My friend owns a local LFS and I tell him what I want, he gets it and wt it for me. An I'm not talking a "friend" from going to this LFS....im talking long term childhood friend before he even owned the store so I trust him.
Anyways, 2 days ago I noticed like two small white spots on the tail. Yesterday, I come home, pop the lights on and this thing is COVERED!!! Overnite....I've never seen anything like it. However, since I got him Friday and even still this thing eats like a rabid animal. It eats everything and anything so I grabbed some garlic yesterday. I think the only thing I really have goin for me is no sand bed. I have already bumped up the temp to 81 and slowly lowering SG to 1.019. Was at .023, brought down to .021-ish yesterday. The tang is not scratching at all or rubbing against anything and is actually acting quite normal in comparison with all other sailfins I have seen.
I am going to keep bringing SG down with my refractometer to 1.019 as stated.
I guess my question is how hard is hyposal as I have never done it and what do I have to watch out for?
Also, if I were to just say **** it, is my LR really ruined for good? Even if ai were to run cupramine afterwards which I already am running....??
This is a FO tank but I do have some really nice rock in there that I would like to use for a reef down the road.
Also, on a side note, just a quick question. After reading all these other threads about ich: say you pull fish and qt in a copper tank. They get cured. Now if ich always stays in a tank and only outbreaks when fish get stressed, what is to say that as soon as I were to drop fish back in my DT that they just get ich again? Maybe I just haven't read enough yet. I just find it weird the fish are acting totally normal and they got infected so bad. The clowns are fine but the basslet is definitely showing some spots now too.
ReeFreak1
New member
Another idea which I found usefull (only if you have a mature QT from a biological standpoint) is to use the same steps I mentioned for hypo until all signs of ick disappear and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week of hypo). Then start raising salinity and adding coppermine simultaneously and gradually over the course of one week to bring the water to normal salinity (1.025) and coppermine to full dose. This handoff process puts continuous stress on parasites and less stress on fish. The biological filter will be suspended at low salinities, but will start working again once out of hypo so less water changes would be required. Watch for Ammonia and PH levels daily. This treatment is quicker than hypo alone and help fight a wider range of pathogens, while quickly eradicate pathogens for heavily infested fish.
Mark
Mark
Against my better judgement . . .
1. Tank transfer is the quickest and most effective way of eliminating ich. However it will do nothing for any other parasite. Based on the mortality timeline of the OP it is highly likely that velvet is involved. I had asked for behavioral indications but was never provided with them.
2. Hyposalinity, even if properly executed, will have no affect on any parasite other than ich. And there is at least one strain of ich that is immune to hyposaline treatments. It is also very difficult to execute properly because if Sg exceeds 1.009 that clock restarts and depends on a properly calibrated refractometer. Even then, you would have to know the standard error of the mean for that instrument to insure you are hyposaline.
3. Buying fish from an LFS that runs a non-therapeutic dosage level of copper is highly risky because it will mask various parasites. And of course depending on the LFS to quarantine will not end well. The longer a fish is at the LFS, the greater the chance it will have acquired an undesirable parasite.
4. Copper treatment for ich will work, but for a 100% guaranteed solution, it would have to be extended longer than the longest observed lifecycle of ich which is 72 days. Many people treat for 30 days, and that will be fine most, but not all, of the time.
5. CP treatment of ich is more effective than hyposalinity and may also be more effective than copper since there is some anecdotal evidence that it may work on more than one stage of the life cycle which hyposalinity and copper do not.
6. Tank transfer is not stressful if done right. However I would never try to put three tangs through that level of confinement at the same time. Dieing, on the other hand, is stressful.
7. Visible symptoms of ich come and go, and relief from visible symptoms does not mean the tank is free of ich. Also, if ich is in the gills, you will not see it. However, you will see behavior indicative of the problem.
1. Tank transfer is the quickest and most effective way of eliminating ich. However it will do nothing for any other parasite. Based on the mortality timeline of the OP it is highly likely that velvet is involved. I had asked for behavioral indications but was never provided with them.
2. Hyposalinity, even if properly executed, will have no affect on any parasite other than ich. And there is at least one strain of ich that is immune to hyposaline treatments. It is also very difficult to execute properly because if Sg exceeds 1.009 that clock restarts and depends on a properly calibrated refractometer. Even then, you would have to know the standard error of the mean for that instrument to insure you are hyposaline.
3. Buying fish from an LFS that runs a non-therapeutic dosage level of copper is highly risky because it will mask various parasites. And of course depending on the LFS to quarantine will not end well. The longer a fish is at the LFS, the greater the chance it will have acquired an undesirable parasite.
4. Copper treatment for ich will work, but for a 100% guaranteed solution, it would have to be extended longer than the longest observed lifecycle of ich which is 72 days. Many people treat for 30 days, and that will be fine most, but not all, of the time.
5. CP treatment of ich is more effective than hyposalinity and may also be more effective than copper since there is some anecdotal evidence that it may work on more than one stage of the life cycle which hyposalinity and copper do not.
6. Tank transfer is not stressful if done right. However I would never try to put three tangs through that level of confinement at the same time. Dieing, on the other hand, is stressful.
7. Visible symptoms of ich come and go, and relief from visible symptoms does not mean the tank is free of ich. Also, if ich is in the gills, you will not see it. However, you will see behavior indicative of the problem.
Zacktosterone
Active member
I've got one 2" tang and 1 1" tang, a couple of anthias and a wrasse in there. I did a tank transfer because I've seen a lack of cysts so I concluded a lot of them have dropped off so I transferewd everything. I said for behavior they were eating. (To add, they were also acting cometely normal, no flashing or heavy breathing) I've provided you with two pictures and a video of the fish. I can not get cp anywhere. All of my fish are eating again after the transfer. This morning all of the fish are very lively!! And look a lot better. (Meaning they're not breathing heavy anymore) I will be doing another TT tomorrow although I might want to do one tonight because there is a lack of spots again and I would like to get them away from the ich. I think the mortality rate was due to shipping stress because velvet would still be taking numbers. I have copper in the tank as well as doing transfer in case velvet actually is present. They are used to the copper by now I will be raising it again today by a half dose.
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Reefer07
New member
So Snorvich, after the ich drops of the host (3-5 days from what I read) if water conditions are still good and no stress or anything and fish are eating a good balanced diet does that mean there's a good chance that the ich won't come back? I understand that its always dormant but if all health is good other than that the fish should be fine?
Actually, that is the principle behind tank transfer. Since the front end of the life cycle is so highly deterministic, if the fish is moved to a new water space (new tank) after the ich "drops off", then the back end of the life cycle does not happen at all. If the fish is not moved, the back end will occur, resulting in reinfection and exponentially increasing quantity of ich. This "confined space issue" of easy reinfection is why ich can be fatal eventually.
But if you truly want to understand the subtleties of cryptocaryon irritans, I suggest reading this sticky. More than you wanted to know, perhaps, but if you read and understand this in detail, it will provide answers to many questions people ask about this parasite.
Zacktosterone
Active member
In the store they weren't breathing heavy or flashing. When I got them home they were breathing heavy but not flashing. After a couple tank transfers they are no longer breathing heavy and are eating good and active. So I will continue with tank transfers
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