Rimless glass build help

[calbert0]

Is 1/16'' silicone gap between panels ideal on all tanks or just large tanks?

If i was building a 24''X24"X12" should i still put 1/16'' spacers in the seams?

What about a 12''X12''12"? would 1/16'' spacers still be beneficial for a tank that small? I know it's not necessary, but is a 1/16'' seam always ideal for a glass tank?

Thanks to all for your help,

 

[uncleof6]

The only real use for spacers, is for larger heavier panels, placed on top of the bottom panel, where the odds are the weight of the panel, will squeeze out most of the silicone. Spacers weaken the seam, to a point. (places where silicone is not bonded to both pieces of glass.

Practice before you start the actual build. I can't stress that enough. Use scrap glass, the real deal silicone. Learn how the materials behave, with silicone between them. It is not hard to learn. What is hard, is building a tank you really want to hold water, and not knowing what you are doing, and don't have the "touch," that is all that is required to keep a seam width where you want it.

 

[JVJordan]

I'm also considering a DIY glass build for a large 4'x8' frag tank. A few questions:

1) How accurately should I expect a supplier to cut the panels. Uncleof6 suggests above that it matters if the supplier is using 9 or 10mm glass. Should I expect then that they are accurate in their cuts to less than 1 mm?

2) I don't necessarily trust rimless and don't mind having a brace. I don't know, but I feel an 8' span even with a shallow tank would benefit from a brace. I was considering having a perimeter brace for the top and bottom edges made out of 2x2x1/8" steel angle. I'd coat or paint the steel angle to deal with corrosion. Any issues with using the lower brace as a starting point for assembling the pieces.. that is build from the brace rather than build the tank separately then adding the brace? Any issues with adhesion of the silicone to the painted steel brace?

3) If placing a heavy glass panel where it may squeeze out the silicone, why not leave 2 thin nails, say 1.5mm in diameter, one at each end of the piece until the joint has set up. Later, pull the nails and inject silicone into the holes left behind (not sure how feasible that is)? If that works, it seems like you could also use such nails in vertical joints with clamps to assure the joint is the correct width.

Thanks for any input.

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Ok, so after practicing my silicone application I have my movements down well and was able to get smooth lines and uninterrupted corners. I had the back pannel and two sides up under 5 minutes

After I put it all together and clamped the corners I was kicked in the gut when I saw that the front pannel had a large air pocket that ran 1/2 the length of the tank. When I laid down the bottom bead, it was about 1/8 of an inch too high and when the front pannel was placed the slilcone queezed out of the upper seam and not downward. After a few choice words I swallowed that bitter pill and realized that this is a do over

When I chose to make a custom tank I accepted the fact that this was a possibility so here I am. I believe I can correct this error on my next attempt. So now it time to cut it all apart and remove this incredibly tenacious silicone. After using a razor and acetone I plan to use #0000 steel wool as the last step is removing the last residue. Does that sound acceptable?

The other question I have uncle as you mentioned, is having the touch in getting the seams to even thickness. 3 of the 4 corners were right at 1/16 seam thickness and the 4th was at nearly an 1/8 which cause uneven pressure I believe. The rtv says keeping the seams less than 1/4" for it rated tensile strength so would this 1/16" variance really be a performance issue?

I realize that having all seams uniform is the goal and I need help understanding how to clamp a tank for even seams when I have 2 seams per side that can vary in thickness and still allow the pannels to be parallel.( one seam could be nearly glass to glass and the other @ 1/8 andstthe glass would still line up). Since I'm using black rtv it does add a degree of difficulty in identifying the edge of the glass once it is in place.

I am discouraged but not beaten and want to get this right. I appreciate any insight into my problems.
Justin

 

[peppie]

Ok, so after practicing my silicone application I have my movements down well and was able to get smooth lines and uninterrupted corners. I had the back pannel and two sides up under 5 minutes

After I put it all together and clamped the corners I was kicked in the gut when I saw that the front pannel had a large air pocket that ran 1/2 the length of the tank. When I laid down the bottom bead, it was about 1/8 of an inch too high and when the front pannel was placed the slilcone queezed out of the upper seam and not downward. After a few choice words I swallowed that bitter pill and realized that this is a do over

When I chose to make a custom tank I accepted the fact that this was a possibility so here I am. I believe I can correct this error on my next attempt. So now it time to cut it all apart and remove this incredibly tenacious silicone. After using a razor and acetone I plan to use #0000 steel wool as the last step is removing the last residue. Does that sound acceptable?

The other question I have uncle as you mentioned, is having the touch in getting the seams to even thickness. 3 of the 4 corners were right at 1/16 seam thickness and the 4th was at nearly an 1/8 which cause uneven pressure I believe. The rtv says keeping the seams less than 1/4" for it rated tensile strength so would this 1/16" variance really be a performance issue?

I realize that having all seams uniform is the goal and I need help understanding how to clamp a tank for even seams when I have 2 seams per side that can vary in thickness and still allow the pannels to be parallel.( one seam could be nearly glass to glass and the other @ 1/8 andstthe glass would still line up). Since I'm using black rtv it does add a degree of difficulty in identifying the edge of the glass once it is in place.

I am discouraged but not beaten and want to get this right. I appreciate any insight into my problems.
Justin

Set the tank up with 1/16'' gap at all seams. brace it. Inject the silicone.
Much easier, no bubbles, no time restraints for skimming over of the silicone.

Unc will not agree. But I have seen many many tanks done this way . Small to large.
IMO it is a much more forgiving process.

Good luck, Glad to hear you are not letting it kick your ......

 

[uncleof6]

Set the tank up with 1/16'' gap at all seams. brace it. Inject the silicone.
Much easier, no bubbles, no time restraints for skimming over of the silicone.

Unc will not agree. But I have seen many many tanks done this way . Small to large.
IMO it is a much more forgiving process.

Good luck, Glad to hear you are not letting it kick your ......

Forgiving? A tank is not capable of forgiving. After surgery, and a couple months in a caste, and a forced retirement due to loss of use of my right hand, I know exactly how forgiving this process is........

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Thanks for the feedback peppie.
Uncle, any thoughts or a point in the direction of a good reference perhaps?

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Thanks for the info pep.
Sorry to hear about your hand uncle. Did you have a panel break and cut you?
What do you think about the concerns I addressed? I see there is lots of crap advise put there. Are there any accurate sources that you know of or is this all insider type info? Is building aquariums typically apprenticeship type training?

 

[uncleof6]

Thanks for the feedback peppie.
Uncle, any thoughts or a point in the direction of a good reference perhaps?

The vast majority of info on tank building on the internet is, as you said..... Scolley (a member here on RC) did a piece on "what not to do," but as I am, was reluctant to give anything more than cursory advice on the right things to do.

There are far too many variables to learn this craft by reading and watching videos on the internet. Some things you can get away with under certain circumstances, but the next case you are asking for a tank blow out, or serious injury, expensive damage, and sometimes loss of limb or life. (not with a 20 gallon tank or so, but I think you get the idea.)

I am not here to teach tank building. I just don't want to see someone make serious mistakes. You can learn this, with practice on smallish tanks; for you the learning curve has started. I consider this craft to be an apprenticeship type training required. That is how I learned. There are too many variables, for an internet step by step to keep you out of trouble.

You are making a smallish tank, and that is the place to make mistakes. Not with some grandiose schemes: building a 300 gallon tank, so what silicone do I need, and how thick does the glass need to be. At that point, if you have to ask--find someone else to build it.

You had asked about clamping etc.

The wrong way:

Photo by Scolley. Incidentally, he specifically stated this is the WRONG way, when he posted this picture. He found out the hard way.


The right way:

Is all that really necessary for a 20 gallon build? Eh, perhaps not, but might as well learn the right way.

 

[jsjonesrdh]

I understand your reservation in providing this kind of information. In my own line of work I often have to answer questions in a broader sense because there are truly so many variables to take into account and most of my patients are not interested in listening to a detailed description of each, nor would it always be appropriate.

I don't know if it matters to you but I respect your opinion and accept the fact that there is inherent risk in what I'm doing ( worst case scenario being total tank failure and drainage) but I also feel that there is risk in just about every DIY project on this board especially in regards to DIY lighting and electrical but the sharing of knowledge is what this place is about. I don't think anyone holds other members liable for failure of a particular task ,at least I hope not. If you have disclosed as much information as you feel comfortable on this subject, I won't ask any more but let me see if I can squeeze one last question in.

Do professional builders use spacers to maintain seam thickness or is this done strictly free hand. From what I have experienced with my one attempt this seems to be the hardest variable to account for. Cuts are right, table is flat and level, clamps in place...most of that falls in to place without much trouble but seam thickness... I have a few ideas that might help me line up the panels quickly and accurately but I just wanted to check of this was something you were willing to share.

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Double post

 

[uncleof6]

I understand your reservation in providing this kind of information. In my own line of work I often have to answer questions in a broader sense because there are truly so many variables to take into account and most of my patients are not interested in listening to a detailed description of each, nor would it always be appropriate.

I don't know if it matters to you but I respect your opinion and accept the fact that there is inherent risk in what I'm doing ( worst case scenario being total tank failure and drainage) but I also feel that there is risk in just about every DIY project on this board especially in regards to DIY lighting and electrical but the sharing of knowledge is what this place is about. I don't think anyone holds other members liable for failure of a particular task ,at least I hope not. If you have disclosed as much information as you feel comfortable on this subject, I won't ask any more but let me see if I can squeeze one last question in.

Do professional builders use spacers to maintain seam thickness or is this done strictly free hand. From what I have experienced with my one attempt this seems to be the hardest variable to account for. Cuts are right, table is flat and level, clamps in place...most of that falls in to place without much trouble but seam thickness... I have a few ideas that might help me line up the panels quickly and accurately but I just wanted to check of this was something you were willing to share.

Some use spacers some don't. Mass producers will do just about anything to speed up production.

The tank you are building is not even a candidate for spacers. This is a hand feel type of thing once you have a little experience. The tank you are building is also not a huge risk either. Take your time, if you mess up, don't be hesitant to start over, although cleaning up silicone residue is no small task (add Acetone and/MEK along with the steel wool by the way.) This is not a race.

 

[jsjonesrdh]

I read through scollys post, wow what a headache!

I noticed that he was trying to place panels individually. While this would be more convenient for silicone working time wouldn't that mean that at the corners, you would be bonding new silicone to partially or fully cured silicone, I can't imagine that this would be the strongest way to do it.

When pros are building tanks like the one you pictured, I imagine that they would have to have several guys working together to get these panels lined up quickly. Are they able to get all that silicone down that quick? They didn't even tape anything :0

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Another double post

 

[scolley]

Subscribed.

Always delighted to learn more...

PS - I've spent hundreds of hours researching rimless tank building, and Uncleof6 KNOWS what he's talking about IMO. The OP is fortunate to get such well informed guidance.

"A word to the wise is suffecient."

 

[uncleof6]

I read through scollys post, wow what a headache!

I noticed that he was trying to place panels individually. While this would be more convenient for silicone working time wouldn't that mean that at the corners, you would be bonding new silicone to partially or fully cured silicone, I can't imagine that this would be the strongest way to do it.

When pros are building tanks like the one you pictured, I imagine that they would have to have several guys working together to get these panels lined up quickly. Are they able to get all that silicone down that quick? They didn't even tape anything :0

It can get to be a headache rather quickly.

Silicone sticks to itself, better than it sticks to anything else. Ever notice how tape will often stick to itself--and nothing else?

Old silicone means been underwater, dirty, mucking messed up replace it old. silicone is not fully cured in a few days (try a week or longer) so it is not "fully cured."

Why not put up one panel at a time? It does give you more time. Give it a few days cure time, then VERY CAREFULLY, move on to the next panel. The only new over old, is a 1/16" "break" near the bottom of the tank. Hardly of any worry. The silicone will stick just fine to this small section.

Generally, there will be a bottom euro-brace also (right?) to help out.

With large tanks you need help just to pick up the individual panels, as some approach 200lbs easily. Large tank builds are not one person jobs. A tank the size you are building, I could build in under 5 minutes, ( I cheat--using an pneumatic caulking gun,) with practice, so could you.

But even with large tanks, it can be done all at one time--not in 5 minutes however. It still goes together one panel at a time--right? Silicone goes on the current panel being placed..... think about it.

Subscribed.

Always delighted to learn more...

PS - I've spent hundreds of hours researching rimless tank building, and Uncleof6 KNOWS what he's talking about IMO. The OP is fortunate to get such well informed guidance.

"A word to the wise is suffecient."

Hey scolley, my friend. How you doing? Long time no hear. Well--we survived the apocalypse.....

 

[scolley]

Lurking as always Uncleof6! :thumbsup: I had my shot at a decent rimless - but as you know - the bursitis I developed in my arm from six (yes six LOL) rebuilds before I got it right kept me from tearing down the one tank side with inadequate silicone. And THAT provided quite a bit of drama a few years later! LOL, live and learn.

That said, I truly enjoy the guidance you provide to others. It's wonderfully instructive.

And begging the indulgence of the OP - apologies - we corresponded a while back on my intention of creating an "internal, standpipe like, box-less, overflow" for my 180g... Well the better half got wind of my plans to convert my 180g to a reef. She saw me putting a couple of hours a week into the 30g reef, did the math and put her foot down on that little project!

No amount of "Honey, it scales... time requirements aren't a linear function of size!" pleas made any difference. So check back in a few years. Everyone forgets with time...

Until then, still enjoying the rimless instruction!

 

[uncleof6]

WAF, can't live with it, can't live without it I guess. Well, I don't think women ever forget LOL: "Remember that time 20 years ago........" I solved that little problem long ago, however--I doubt that others would approve of my solution.

 

[jsjonesrdh]

Scolly I admire your persistence


For the life of me I don't know why I thought that all panels had to be up within that same window. Had I known that you can still get a strong bond to silicone that has already skinned ( I realize the current panel has to be placed before skinning however), I don't think I would have had the errors I did. I was rushing, I guess I thought that all silicone and panels had to be up. I am much more confident now having a bit more time putting up a panel, bracing and then moving to the next instead of laying a bead and putting the glass up and THEN adjusting and clamping. I'll keep you all updated. Thanks again.

 

[scolley]

Thanks for the kind words. But truth be told, I did not put everything up together at one go because it was just me building. I've built a lot of little rimless tanks that I always do in one shot. But bigger tanks with big, thick, heavy glass either need a wall by wall build, or a team to do it all quickly.

In my deep research of the topic I did talk with one true silicone expert who maintained that new silicone did not bond well with old silicone. But the context of that comment was around resiliconing old tanks. His point was that if you are going to replace one panel, you need to replace them all.

But unless someone in the know like Uncleof6 is going to say otherwise, I've seen no evidence that new silicone will not bond well to silicone that is still not fully cured.

And I'm no expert - to be sure. But my one well documented attempt put me in touch with a LOT of people building rimless tanks. And I've seen nothing to indicate that you cannot put an hour or a day or two between panes. If that were wrong, I'd have been deluged people p*ssed because their tanks failed when following my instructions. But thankfully, to this day, all I've received is "Thank you"s.

Good luck. :thumbsup: