Ritteri losing tentacles

[ThRoewer]

What scientific evidence do you have to support this?

They actually do, and there is a lot of research done on this.
But that doesn't mean that anemones can cure themselves when sick.
Anyone who actually has experience with anemones knows that once an anemone's defenses are overwhelmed by a pathogen it won't be able to cure itself and needs help in form of antibiotics treatment. If you do nothing the anemone will certainly die.

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[Small Heavens]

Hi again guys

Y'all are ignoring the allelopathy because you want to create what you want to see, isn't that right?

Minh, your specimens are wonderful and if you had a more beneficial social understanding you would get more recognition but you are too arrogant and I don't intend to endorse that. I am happily retired, globally among the 3% riches and living in denmark, having huge tanks is actually not that uncommon here. I just don't have any need to keep a large tank, so I do not care to comment much because I know many of you here will have nothing to say to me but LARGE TANK IS REX (lol what do you think is actually causing all those instability crashes that you fear so?).

Listen ThRoewer, you might have treated Nems and seen them recover but guessing that it was then your treatment working, that is not knowledge that is [your guess is as good as mine].

No antibiotics is approved by the FDA for ornamental marine trade, so you getting all in my face about how it factually helps anything here, is somewhat over the top. Anything sold directly as antibiotics to ornamental marine trade, might actually just be fake, the FDA reminds you to be aware of that as well.

Anemones are highly antifungal and antibiotic in themselves and they, have, beneficial bacteria, on them.

The clownfishes that gets to mix their slimecoat with wild nems, transfer these beneficial bacteria to their own body cultures and this makes them ..better...at...combatting... bad..bacteria...

Guys, when you give Nems antibiotics, you do realise that you are killing its own bacteria as well, RIGHT?

Ah well, to people who are reading and not necessarily ready to bomb every deflated tentacle with antibiotics just yet; newly moved Nems take their time, like putting up a tent in a new location. Somebody just took their tent from where it WAS and nobody pulled down their tent for them, so they gotta do it all themselves and put it back up again so it fits the new water flow and it takes time. Try to make sure that you have time to keep the Nem under observation and adjust the light to provoke a response if the Nem deflates so much that there is no water left in the tentacles and it does not refresh water within a few minutes.

The trick is, all it takes is a few minutes before the rotting sets in. If you all go to work while dosing these things, you might arrest development of bacteria that would have otherwise killed the Anemone but you then only needed to do so because you try to tend to something by not being there to actually tend to it.




~ regarding the allelopathy....

Let's say, a human lived for YEARS in a coal mine, deep deep down. Fine, great, good for you, you are doing something right. On the other hand, you don't need to keep your pets in poison soups, even with aggressive skimming, and anybody have the right to feel and express that. I just did and I am sorry if I offended anybody but I do mean to encourage y'all to start up on a treatment line that is more focused on stressfree environments and time, than on using antibiotics as precaution.

 

[Small Heavens]

Ps. They can get so exhausted, that tentacles "hang" into the mouth, when the mouth then moves, it "cuts" of its own tentacles like a scissor. If you haven't given it food, feeding it something very small, I suggest flushing the tank with copepods, rotifers + phytoplankton, might help prevent the tentacle damage by upping the energy it gets each day to reassess its tent's situation

 

[ThRoewer]

Do actually have or ever had a reef tank and anemones?

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[Small Heavens]

You didn't answer my question, a "Display Tank" is mostly unnatural environments full of what their owners want to see ThRoewer

I keep 1LTA and 2Polymnus of the Polynesia type, you know, as my profile say "specimen tank" = 1anemone, 1host pair.

 

[OrionN]

All living things have immune system and fight/suppress infection. Just because they have immune system, it does not mean that their immune system win every time, especially given the stress associated with collection and transport across the world in a small bag of contaminated water. Stress free environment is essential but not possible in transport unless we want to pay prohibit high cost. Like I said on my treatment protocol, antibiotic is essential for the survival of many of these anemones when first import. The survival rate improved drastically when we treat these anemones with antibiotic especially when they are newly imported. I never have to treat any of my anemones with antibiotic after the first few weeks. This is very similar with us taken antibiotic for pneumonia or kidney infection or sepsis. With antibiotic, fewer of us died from these infections. Survival of these animal long term will depends on the environment that they keep in.

Small Heavens,
I am not trying to convince you of anything, but I hope at least you read the introduction of the antibiotic protocol I wrote.
Regarding allelopathy, one cannot proof negative, other than seeing that they live with each other without problem. I cannot proof that the anemones do not kill each other with allelopathy, but you should be able to proof positive if there is actually allolepathy. Where is your proof that there are allelopathy, what substance release that will harm another anemones and not harm the anemone that releasing it?

Logically, any toxin release will damage the anemone that is releasing it the most. Injection toxin into another animal is another mater. Anemones and corals already have mechanism to wages wars by direct injection, much more potent and efficient method of killing competitors. They don't need to evolved toxin to be release into the water to attack other animals around them. Other than Octopus releasing ink to escapes(not killing their attacker), I cannot think of any living thing releasing anything into the air or water to kill competitors. Secreting antibiotic or toxin on land where it stay where it release does not count (not the same thing). There are plenty of these examples on land organism, mostly plants.

Are my animal stressed or not? I let the results speak for themselves.

 

[ThRoewer]

... I cannot think of any living thing releasing anything into the air or water to kill competitors. ...

Some algae actually do.

 

[ThRoewer]

You didn't answer my question, a "Display Tank" is mostly unnatural environments full of what their owners want to see ThRoewer

I keep 1LTA and 2Polymnus of the Polynesia type, you know, as my profile say "specimen tank" = 1anemone, 1host pair.

I didn't notice any question.

So you have "experience" with just one single anemone and on top of that a rather hardy one. That hardly counts as a representative sample and certainly doesn't make you an authority on the matter or gives you the right to school far more experienced people here who have years of experience with nearly every species of host anemone there is.

And giving people who are seeking help here misleading information based on your very limited experience and twisted ideology is just callous and endangering the health and welfare of those people's animals.

Gigantea, magnifica, and often also crispa and malu are far more sensitive to shipping stress and the first two are particularly susceptible for contracting infections.
Before treating of these sick anemones was done with Cipro, despite best efforts and ideal conditions, they would succumb to the infection in nearly every case.
Widespread success with these anemones has only become possible due to Minh's antibiotic treatment protocol. Before that buying these anemones was a gamble the anemone mostly lost.
Today most anemones can be saved if they get treated in time.

I tried it both ways and in my experience doing nothing when and anemone is sick will lead to the death of the anemone in each and every case. Even throwing them back into the ocean wouldn't change their fate.

 

[OrionN]

Some algae actually do.

I don't think they are actually release them as a method of control competitor growth in water. I think high concentration of the plants does release some chemical as waste. The water in the ocean is too vast, circulation is too much, to make releasing chemical into the water as method of control competitor growth feasible.

Many animals and plants use chemical releasing into air or water, or deposit to mark territory, pheromones, as signal to each other, but not as weapons of war. Plants have chemicals in it leaves to inhibit other plant growth under it shade. Leaves fall and deposit these chemical around the plant to keep other plants growing there.

I will try to read any reference you may have and eat my word on this topic if you provide them.

 

[Planetmacro]

Anemones with longer tentacles does not act as the carpet Nems, in as much as they need a lot more time to rearrange their internal structure each time they are moved.

If it is eating its own tentacles, most likely cause would be getting so little lighting that the Nem needs emergency feedings to get energy enough to move and recover in general.

If you look at humans in a microscope, we have bacteria everywhere but if we are dead and covered in bacteria, it does not mean bacteria killed us. The same rule does apply with anemones, the fact that they will have lots of bacteria going on in and on them, does not mean that this bacteria is lethal for them.

Throwing medicine bombs after everything, makes a cover up for the fact that a Nem with long tentacles can take a good amount of time feeling up the water and then pulling in all of its disc to rearrange.

Remember that time and observation is your best way to learn what is really going on with it.

If one person say they just put the Nem in their tank and it looked perfect ever since, might just not have been looking at the tank when the Nem had enough impression of its surroundings to re-cast its entire tentacle- and disc-tissue structure.

They do work slightly like a tiny tiny fisherman with the most HUGE net.

Give your Nem -time- to fold OUT its skirt, not medicine that will disrupt it's natural bacterial growth.

Wow! What total bullshit! Just ignore this guy. What nonsense.

 

[ThRoewer]

I don't think they are actually release them as a method of control competitor growth in water. I think high concentration of the plants does release some chemical as waste. The water in the ocean is too vast, circulation is too much, to make releasing chemical into the water as method of control competitor growth feasible.

Many animals and plants use chemical releasing into air or water, or deposit to mark territory, pheromones, as signal to each other, but not as weapons of war. Plants have chemicals in it leaves to inhibit other plant growth under it shade. Leaves fall and deposit these chemical around the plant to keep other plants growing there.

I will try to read any reference you may have and eat my word on this topic if you provide them.

Seaweed's "Chemical Weapons" Killing Corals

Not really algae but close:

Cyanobacterial chemical warfare affects zooplankton community composition

I actually found also some on corals and sponges:

Chemical warfare among scleractinians: bioactive natural products from Tubastraea faulkneri Wells kill larvae of potential competitors

Chemical warfare on coral reefs: Sponge metabolites differentially affect coral symbiosis in situ

Chemical Warfare on Coral Reefs: Suppressing a Competitor Enhances Susceptibility to a Predator

 

[OrionN]

Let me read them and admit and eat my words when I finish.

 

[ThRoewer]

... you know, as my profile say "specimen tank" = 1anemone, 1host pair.

BTW, the anemone is the "host" who is 'hosting' the anemonefish who are the "guests".

And I suppose you actually mean "species tank" as specimen tank/container means something different.

 

[Small Heavens]

Using antibiotics without real proof that it is really needed remains under every possible criticism.

I see a lot of stuff being said for you to cover up for that fact and I bid you goodday.

ThRoewer hahahahah good attempt cutie, both can be said to host the other, anyway, have fun figuring out which part being said here was the important part.

*Big smile, waves*

 

[hottuna]

"If the Nem deflates so badly that it can suffer oxygen depletion in the tentacles " ...only 1 thing I can add to this weird discussion- back in the day (early 80's) before all this talk of antibiotic treatment..I had a few poor looking magnifica specimens (inflate/deflate) turn around by placing them in a highly lit tank that was filtered only by an algae turf scrubber with a dump bucket ...the surges of highly oxygenated water dumping back into the tank must have done wonders for those anemones...no abx...FWIW.

 

[OrionN]

Seaweed's "Chemical Weapons" Killing Corals

Not really algae but close:

Cyanobacterial chemical warfare affects zooplankton community composition

I actually found also some on corals and sponges:

Chemical warfare among scleractinians: bioactive natural products from Tubastraea faulkneri Wells kill larvae of potential competitors

Chemical warfare on coral reefs: Sponge metabolites differentially affect coral symbiosis in situ

Chemical Warfare on Coral Reefs: Suppressing a Competitor Enhances Susceptibility to a Predator

I may not have to eat my words after all.
All of these studies analyzed for chemical on/in the algae or in the coral and exposed corals to high concentration of these chemical, high enough to be easily assay if it is in the water. This cause damages to corals or larvae of corals, or Zooxanthellae of other corals. To test exposure one of the study even have to put the chemical in question in a stabilization gel (so water cannot wash them away) then apply to other corals. I did not read to deep into the cyanobacterial article. Toxin of cyanobacterial are well know and not the same.

The algae article even theorized that the algae actually evolved these toxin to deter fish from eating them, not use to combat corals. Actually on and in the algae, to be ingest by fish that try to eat the algae and sicken them.

Regarding the corals, once cannot conclude from the study that the method of delivery of these toxin is to release them into the water. If this is the case, they can easily detect by measure to concentration of these chemical around the corals.

 

[OrionN]

In all of these articles, the effect happen when the animals and or plants are in direct contact, or in concentration much higher than can be account for by just release the toxin into the water (my interpretation .05-1% of concentration in the tissue). There is no way anything can reach .02% to 1% by just release them into the water.

 

[ThRoewer]

In all of these articles, the effect happen when the animals and or plants are in direct contact, or in concentration much higher than can be account for by just release the toxin into the water (my interpretation .05-1% of concentration in the tissue). There is no way anything can reach .02% to 1% by just release them into the water.

Releasing toxins en masse into the water column to fight off competitors long distance would probably be inefficient on a reef given the high flow rates. But algae and corals most definitely engage in chemical warfare via contact or close proximity.
In a small, closed system like a reef tank released toxins certainly can accumulate and cause problems.

 

[ThRoewer]

Using antibiotics without real proof that it is really needed remains under every possible criticism.

Well, doctors prescribe broadband antibiotics every day just based on their observations and experience without actually obtaining a precise identification of the pathogen first.

The fact that the antibiotics treatment of anemones has proven to work over and over makes it a valid approach even if the actual pathogen hasn't identified yet.

hahahahah good attempt cutie, both can be said to host the other, ...

No, it can't be said both ways.
The definition of "host" (in biology) is: "an animal or plant on or in which a parasite or commensal organism lives."
The anemone is the host, not the fish.
The fish would only be hosts to parasites they may have.

 

[OrionN]

Releasing toxins en masse into the water column to fight off competitors long distance would probably be inefficient on a reef given the high flow rates. But algae and corals most definitely engage in chemical warfare via contact or close proximity.
In a small, closed system like a reef tank released toxins certainly can accumulate and cause problems.

My point exactly. Organism certainly compete with each other for space and resources. For the reef, competition happen with contact. Releasing toxin into the water, not so much since it is too inefficient.