RO/DI decision time
- Thread starter five.five-six
- Start date
kidney514
Premium Member
hi
I am also in the process of getting an RO/DI, but I have a question?
I already have a whole house filtration unit that is really decent, (http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/pse1...9.html?zenid=312538b4ae7a857af2750ab9db3ff275)
now should I get regular RO/DI System of should sort off customs build one, since my whole house unite already have a sediment and charcoal and also a non-salt driven softener?
Like 2 x RO then DI or the standard Sediment, Carbon block, catalytic carbon, RO, RO and DI?
I am also in the process of getting an RO/DI, but I have a question?
I already have a whole house filtration unit that is really decent, (http://www.waterfilter-usa.com/pse1...9.html?zenid=312538b4ae7a857af2750ab9db3ff275)
now should I get regular RO/DI System of should sort off customs build one, since my whole house unite already have a sediment and charcoal and also a non-salt driven softener?
Like 2 x RO then DI or the standard Sediment, Carbon block, catalytic carbon, RO, RO and DI?
five.five-six
Well-known member
no, i have a very crappy tds meter, it reads my tank water at 0026, but zero on tap watter.. thanks, I think I have enouth info to make a call to filter guys
and order a TDS meter first
Reno Reef
New member
Re: RO/DI decision time
HAHA you sound like me. I had to lug 2 shopping carts around the store to get the 6, 5 gal jugs to the machine for over the last year. And recently I have notice a large HA outbreak in both of my tanks. I asked a guy I know with who works there when the last time they were serviced, and he told me they had cut their contract with the company and were just waiting for them to pick up the units. When I asked how long ago they cut the contract he said it had been over 3 months... so yep my RO water hadnt had a filer change in AT LEAST 3 months.
So I ordered from melevsreef.com should be here tomorrow.
HAHA you sound like me. I had to lug 2 shopping carts around the store to get the 6, 5 gal jugs to the machine for over the last year. And recently I have notice a large HA outbreak in both of my tanks. I asked a guy I know with who works there when the last time they were serviced, and he told me they had cut their contract with the company and were just waiting for them to pick up the units. When I asked how long ago they cut the contract he said it had been over 3 months... so yep my RO water hadnt had a filer change in AT LEAST 3 months.
So I ordered from melevsreef.com should be here tomorrow.
AZDesertRat
In Memoriam
Kidney,
You still want a good quality RO/DI with all the normal filters. Thewhole house system may remove large sedimernt and particulates but the RO prefilter should take it down to 0.2 to no more than 1 micron. Also RO membranes threshold for chlorine is .01 mg/L and I'm sure your whole house can't do that, it takes a really good carbon block to accomplish that and last any amount of time.
You still want a good quality RO/DI with all the normal filters. Thewhole house system may remove large sedimernt and particulates but the RO prefilter should take it down to 0.2 to no more than 1 micron. Also RO membranes threshold for chlorine is .01 mg/L and I'm sure your whole house can't do that, it takes a really good carbon block to accomplish that and last any amount of time.
five.five-six
Well-known member
Re: Re: RO/DI decision time
Re: Re: RO/DI decision time
yea, i am 40 freaking years old, standing in the rain, I support a family and won't even buy myself a water filter [smacks head]
Re: Re: RO/DI decision time
yea, i am 40 freaking years old, standing in the rain, I support a family and won't even buy myself a water filter [smacks head]
AZDesertRat
In Memoriam
There are lots of good choices. Start with the Reef Central Sponsors that deal almost exclusively in RO and RO/DI systems, they know best.
www.buckeyefieldsupply.com
www.spectrapure.com
www.melevsreef.com
www.airwaterice.com
www.purelyh2o.com
www.thefilterguys.biz
Expect to spend between $150 and $230 or so for a good basic unit with everything you should need including a TDS meter and inline pressure gauge. Look for things like a full sized 10" 20 ounce vertical refillabe DI canister and cartridge, a 75 GPD RO membrane and good quality low micron rated pre and carbon filters.
www.buckeyefieldsupply.com
www.spectrapure.com
www.melevsreef.com
www.airwaterice.com
www.purelyh2o.com
www.thefilterguys.biz
Expect to spend between $150 and $230 or so for a good basic unit with everything you should need including a TDS meter and inline pressure gauge. Look for things like a full sized 10" 20 ounce vertical refillabe DI canister and cartridge, a 75 GPD RO membrane and good quality low micron rated pre and carbon filters.
Artisan Corals
In Memoriam
I wanted to address some points that AZDesertRat stated a couple days ago:
Kati/Ani DI systems have their place but are not as efficient as a good RO/DI system --- An RO system alone achieves 96-98% efficiency. The DI add-on gets you up to 99%. A Kati Ani or other high end deionizer alone will get you to 99% without the prefilters or membranes.
and also require harardous chemicals to recharge the resin --- This is true, you need a 6 part water to one part muriatic acid dilution and a similar dilution of sodium hydroxide/water.
You will also find you will never ever be able to recharge the resin back to 100% as it requires heat too to accomplish this --- You do not need any heat to regenerate the Kati Ani resins. Many units (resins) have been regenerated over and over for decades - meaning they regenerate to 100% in about an hour with the above mentioned chemicals alone.
DI will not remove non electrically charged contaminates so is not as effective as a membrane --- each purification system has flaws. You could also say RO only takes out particles over a certain size so it is not as effective as Kati Ani. The bottom line is both filtration methods have problems removing some pesticides and do not remove all silicates. Like RO, the Kati Ani does need good activated charcoal to assist in the elimination of chloramines. Otherwise there are no major differences.
I suppose if I hada tpa TDS or 50 or less I would consider it but when the national average TDS exceeds 250 its not an option for most. ---- Kati Ani has been made in Germany since the early 70's and it is very popular in Europe. Their water is much worse than ours on average. In a part of Switzerland, the TDS is 825 and the Kati Ani is effective but in that case they use two Kati units with one Ani unit. Higher TDS or GH will require higher costs (more regenerations), but this would also cause more frequent membrane and prefilter changes in an RO system. The total cost per gallon of purified water is much lower with the Kati Ani.
And no wasted water with a 385GPD throughput.
Bruce
Kati/Ani DI systems have their place but are not as efficient as a good RO/DI system --- An RO system alone achieves 96-98% efficiency. The DI add-on gets you up to 99%. A Kati Ani or other high end deionizer alone will get you to 99% without the prefilters or membranes.
and also require harardous chemicals to recharge the resin --- This is true, you need a 6 part water to one part muriatic acid dilution and a similar dilution of sodium hydroxide/water.
You will also find you will never ever be able to recharge the resin back to 100% as it requires heat too to accomplish this --- You do not need any heat to regenerate the Kati Ani resins. Many units (resins) have been regenerated over and over for decades - meaning they regenerate to 100% in about an hour with the above mentioned chemicals alone.
DI will not remove non electrically charged contaminates so is not as effective as a membrane --- each purification system has flaws. You could also say RO only takes out particles over a certain size so it is not as effective as Kati Ani. The bottom line is both filtration methods have problems removing some pesticides and do not remove all silicates. Like RO, the Kati Ani does need good activated charcoal to assist in the elimination of chloramines. Otherwise there are no major differences.
I suppose if I hada tpa TDS or 50 or less I would consider it but when the national average TDS exceeds 250 its not an option for most. ---- Kati Ani has been made in Germany since the early 70's and it is very popular in Europe. Their water is much worse than ours on average. In a part of Switzerland, the TDS is 825 and the Kati Ani is effective but in that case they use two Kati units with one Ani unit. Higher TDS or GH will require higher costs (more regenerations), but this would also cause more frequent membrane and prefilter changes in an RO system. The total cost per gallon of purified water is much lower with the Kati Ani.
And no wasted water with a 385GPD throughput.
Bruce
Fishbulb2
New member
Hello Bruce,
I think I have to disagree with this statement above. You give the impression that Kati Ani will filter down to a smaller micron size than RO but my understanding is that this is certainly not the case. The prefilters in an RO system will filter down to .35 or 1 um depending on the filter. The Ani-Kati system has no prefilters and essentially will not filter out particles appreciably at all. Is that not correct? I think for particle filtration the RO system will perform much better. I would not expect the Kat-Ani system to perform any better than the DI component of an RO system for filtration in general.
AZDesertRat
In Memoriam
The simple truth is they won't. They have limited uses.
Fishbulb2
New member
I would also like to clarify how an RO membrane works. I think there is often a misconception that they filter based solely on absolute particle size. In reality, they filter and reject particles based on their apparent size in water due to hydration. So small molecules that are heavily charged will be rejected far more easily that large molecules that carry no charge or are weakly charged. Examples of this are how RO membranes will reject Na+ more easily than say NO3- or PO4- even though these molecules are much larger than a single sodium ion. In solution, the sodium ion will will form a large complex with polar water molecules and it is this apparent size the will allow it to be rejected by the membrane. So RO membranes actually reject particles as much based on their charge as their size (because it is in part their charge that dictates their size in water).
A little off topic I know, but this thread started out on understanding how these filters work so I thought I'd though this in.
FB
A little off topic I know, but this thread started out on understanding how these filters work so I thought I'd though this in.
FB
five.five-six
Well-known member
I just want my fish to look good and not stand out in the rain and driving wind in the middle of the night with a bag of quarters and a bunch of jugs while the night crew at the grocery store contemplates calling 911 to report a strange looking vagrant standing outside near the water dispensing machine
Artisan Corals
In Memoriam
I think we are both correct, just coming from different directions.
I was referring to the removal of minerals and organics that we don't want in an aquarium. If you have a problem with sediment, the Kati Ani is not a filter, but it is a purifier. You can obviously add a sediment filter to a Kati Ani if you want or need to. The point was that the Kati Ani does not require that all sediment is removed to operate at full efficiency. The RO is a filter membrane that would become clogged and not operate fully without the sediment prefilter.
The typical mixed bed canister attached to an RO system does work similarly to a Kati Ani. The difference is that it is not rechargeable and thus expensive to replace. That is why it is placed after the prefilters and RO membrane. The Kati Ani has two separate canisters of resins that can be recharged over and over again at a very low cost.
The Kati Ani purifies water by way of electron attachments and the RO filters based on size. The size of the particles removed the the RO membranes are determined by the compound created by electrically charges. Different approaches to a similar end result - 0 TDS.
These Kati Ani units are very very popular in Europe since they have been manufactured in Germany for 30+ years. Many of our most experienced "founding" aquarists have used Kati Ani on their own systems for years partly because larger scale operations need the lowest cost purification. I can't name names, but I know that three of the 2007 MACNA speakers use them personally and maybe more.
Bruce
I was referring to the removal of minerals and organics that we don't want in an aquarium. If you have a problem with sediment, the Kati Ani is not a filter, but it is a purifier. You can obviously add a sediment filter to a Kati Ani if you want or need to. The point was that the Kati Ani does not require that all sediment is removed to operate at full efficiency. The RO is a filter membrane that would become clogged and not operate fully without the sediment prefilter.
The typical mixed bed canister attached to an RO system does work similarly to a Kati Ani. The difference is that it is not rechargeable and thus expensive to replace. That is why it is placed after the prefilters and RO membrane. The Kati Ani has two separate canisters of resins that can be recharged over and over again at a very low cost.
The Kati Ani purifies water by way of electron attachments and the RO filters based on size. The size of the particles removed the the RO membranes are determined by the compound created by electrically charges. Different approaches to a similar end result - 0 TDS.
These Kati Ani units are very very popular in Europe since they have been manufactured in Germany for 30+ years. Many of our most experienced "founding" aquarists have used Kati Ani on their own systems for years partly because larger scale operations need the lowest cost purification. I can't name names, but I know that three of the 2007 MACNA speakers use them personally and maybe more.
Bruce
AZDesertRat
In Memoriam
Anthony Calfo uses kati ani and him and I disagree on their usefulness. We agree to disagree. He has been in my home and photographed some of my corals and has seen how well my RO/DI worked but he still uses his DI system. Not for me and I still stand on the fact they do not work as well but do have their place, just not with bad water.
Artisan Corals
In Memoriam
Fair enough. I guess I'm in the same boat as Anthony - agree to disagree.
five.five-six
Well-known member
so I just spoke with my water department and they said they do use cloramine... how bad is that?
