Rock from a miracle mud setup - PO4 issue

[janco]

Thanks, for that input. Yes, if there is something I can do fairly quickly to address the PO4 leeching out of the rock, it'd be great. I bought the rock because I recently got 17 frags I'd like to secure to bases, a number of which are Tyree LE's. But if I have to wait a month to use this rock in my main tank, I might as well leave the frags in their PVC cutoffs. I understand the cooking process and think it can be useful where warranted, but in my case I was looking for more of a quick fix.

FWIW, I've got a 6-7 inch substrate, and I'm not fond of the bare bottom look. I've no problem with folks who choose to go BB though, that's their personal preference. Anyway, right now I'm running high flow in the Brute can, and a Phosban Reactor. Of course, the reactor may not do me any good if PO4 is going to continue to leech out of the rock for a month or two.

Thanks again for the help,

jan

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585133#post6585133 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
So to get back on track here, aside from "cooking" his rocks, what should janco do to get the phosphates out of those rocks he just bought? What advice should SeanT be giving instead of "cook 'em" in this case? Or should janco just toss the rocks into his tank and not worry about it?

 

[fishman805]

Sometimes you just have to draw a picture of the process Rich... Invariably, the next question would have been: " So how do you "cook" LR..?" Sean just saved him the trouble of asking....

I believe that phosphates will always be an issue at one point or another and cooking just delays the inevitable... Phosban reactors and water changes and low bio-loading good skimmers and large fuges are all good resources to use to keep it in check or keep it close to undetectable...

Bob

 

[Weatherman]

Weââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re getting outside the scope of the question hereââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

The question isââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

 

[fishman805]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585253#post6585253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
Weââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re getting outside the scope of the question hereââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

The question isââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

There ya go......:thumbsup:

Bob

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585233#post6585233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Exactly. Rock cooking gives you a clean slate. He still needs to fix his problems or he'll be back in the same place in a year.

Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

Rock cooking came about in the following way:
My tank crashed-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the sand-->removal of sand bed-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems with my bare bottom also-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the rocks-->rock cooking-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems even after cooking my rocks-->it couldn't have been me, I must not have cooked the rocks enough-->more rock cooking-->etc, etc.

Notice that "It couldn't have been me" is a pretty consistent part of this nonsense?

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585292#post6585292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

That wasn't the original question.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585253#post6585253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
Weââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re getting outside the scope of the question hereââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

The question isââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues. I guess I could suscribe to the sky is falling idea that my rocks will eventually explode, but I have too much fun looking at beautiful tanks that have been set up for over a decade without cooking their rocks to do so.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585304#post6585304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
That wasn't the original question.

I wasn't answering the original question, I was addressing a response to one of my posts.

 

[aubee91]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585292#post6585292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

Or maybe the point that's being missed is that in this case, the problem is in the rocks. And the system causing the problem wasn't his and neither was the husbandry. He just wanted to know how to get the PO4 out of them as he was probably going with the (accurate, imo) assumption that it's generally a bad idea to introduce an additional source of phosphate into our systems.

If there's a better way to do it than cooking the rocks, cool. I'd like to know what it is too.

Rock cooking came about in the following way:
My tank crashed-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the sand-->removal of sand bed-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems with my bare bottom also-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the rocks-->rock cooking-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems even after cooking my rocks-->it couldn't have been me, I must not have cooked the rocks enough-->more rock cooking-->etc, etc.

Notice that "It couldn't have been me" is a pretty consistent part of this nonsense?

 

[janco]

Ooops, guys, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here. Again, FWIW, the PO4 and the algae in my tank are well under control. It is that way because I don't overfeed, I've got a great skimmer/sump, and a pretty good fuge setup. It wasn't always that way though: when I first setup the tank, I bought 80 pounds of LR from a guy who had it sitting in a Brute can. He had gotten the rock free from someone who gave up the hobby because they couldn't get a handle on their algae problems. Anyway, I had algae issues for months after putting this rock in the tank, but with good husbandry (read: feeding, skimming, water changes, macro algae mangement, and algae eating critters), I got a handle on those algae issues and most of that original rock is now just about fully covered in coraline.

Don't know if that helps the discussion or not, and thanks again for your input regarding the isue with this new rock I just got.

jan

 

[RichConley]

Cure the rocks. All the advantages of cooking without killing off the coraline.

 

[xtrstangx]

Theres nothing I love more than an uneducated opinion, finneganswake.

Cook the rock.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585761#post6585761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtrstangx
Theres nothing I love more than an uneducated opinion, finneganswake.

Cook the rock.

Uneducated opinion? Could you back this up with an educated opinion:lol:

Remember, kids, educated people follow trends started by "experts" on a website. Uneducated people actually read books and follow established wisdom.

Remember, this is coming from an "educated" person who's been keeping reefs for 6 MONTHS!!!

 

[xtrstangx]

finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.

IMO, an expert would be Dr. Ron Shimek. Many of the big BB advocates aren't experts, IMO, they do have an educated opinion and know what they are talking about.

There is one thing I don't like with books in this hobby. By the time they write the book, edit it, and get it published, the hobby has changed. This hobby has too many new ideas to make an effective book.. by the time the book has been published, it is outdated.

Just because I've been in the hobby for 9 months doesn't mean anything. I've seen people that have 5 years of "experience" with the UGLIEST tanks. I've also seen people whose tanks are 3 months old and already have awesome SPS growth.

As far as your uneducated opinion.. you have never seen SeanT's tank in person. You don't know what husbandry he goes through. There was no reason to attack his tank or his methods.

Opinions are like armpits: everyone has one and they all stink. If you wish to continue your argument with me, you can send me a PM. No reason to do it on this thread (where it is completely irrelevant).

Good day and happy reefkeeping.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585959#post6585959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtrstangx
finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585328#post6585328 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues.

Uh, yes I did

The point is not removing phosphate from the rock--that's looking at it from the wrong direction. You remove the phosphate from the water as (or after, in my case, but I'll do it differently the next time) the rock cures. A well designed tank can deal with rocks and any associated issues.

 

[fishman805]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6585959#post6585959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtrstangx
Opinions are like armpits: everyone has one and they all stink.

" mine doesn't stink......

But this thread is starting to....

Oh well, I'm glad that your tank is doing well ( meant for the thread starter )

Good luck with the LR issues

Bob

 

[ichthyophile]

up until the flaming started, this was a beneficial thread to me.

reading seanT's lenghty re-post shed some light on my own red cyanobacter algea problem. i am running a skimmer, caulerpa refugium, and some rowaphos in my system, yet the red algae persists. (no hair, diatom cyled quickly). i now realize that my live rock must be contributing to my phosphate levels. i bought 50 lbs of fiji from a friend of a friend, for a decent price. he had the rock "curing" for several months in a filled-to-the-brim 20 gallon tank, complete with a powerhead, heater, and a **metal halide light**. i didn't think much of it then, but he was indeed farming an algae based ecosystem, as mentioned. damn that guy and his light... the rock is gorgeous, full of feather dusters, sponges, and a number of other things. i am starting to get a nice patina of coraline algae, but can't get past that red cyanobacteria on the lower portions of the rock. my tank is partially stocked and has an established cleaning crew, so i can't shut down and cook my rock, but i do appreciate the notion that my rock is likely leeching phosphate as an explanation for the strength of my algae bloom.

 

[aubee91]

quote:Originally posted by xtrstangx
finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.


quote:Originally posted by finneganswake
But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6586196#post6586196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Uh, yes I did

The point is not removing phosphate from the rock--that's looking at it from the wrong direction. You remove the phosphate from the water as (or after, in my case, but I'll do it differently the next time) the rock cures. A well designed tank can deal with rocks and any associated issues.

The operative word there was better. The whole idea behind removing the phosphate from the rock in the first place was to prevent it from gettting into the water. Putting the phosphate in your tank water is hardly a better way to remove the phosphate from the rock. If it gets in the water it can grow nuisance algae and inhibit the skeletization of stony corals.

 

[AHBrit]

keep the rock in the tank
run the phosban reactor to keep the excess phosphates out of the watercolumn. This will stop the soon to be formed algae speading off the rocks.
just keep pulling the algae off the rock when it gets long enough.

i recommend seahares for the interim, then trade them to a LFS when your clear.

The great thing about the algae bloom youll get = Biological nitrate reducer. Your Tyree frags will love it

 

[AHBrit]

oh yeah, use filter socks and the biggest skimmer you can borrow off a friend.
change sock every 2 days