Rock from a miracle mud setup - PO4 issue

[Lobster]

Sorry those guys de-railed your thread.

I think you are really asking if there is a way to get all the phosphate out of your rock quickly, and the answer is probably "no". If there's that much phosphate stored in there, it will take time for it to leach out. Like you said, it came from a system where the owner apparently knew phosphates were tied up in that rock.

Doing water changes is probably the cheapest and easiest way to export the phosphate and other gunk. Phosphate remover would likely fill up pretty quick at these levels - its better for removing nearly undetectable amounts from an already well-run system. Your best bet is to give it time. Cooking is great for exactly this, but like SeanT pointed out, it does take more than one night!

At any rate, I definitely wouldnt put all those frags ($$$) on phosphate-laden rock.

 

[Sindjin]

If there's that much phosphate stored in there, it will take time for it to leach out.

Bingo.
NO ONE can determine the amount of PO4/debris build up inside Live Rock. Period. NO ONE can determine how long the rock will shed in a particular setup. So... if you are setting up a new tank...BB, SSB, or DSB... there is only ONE sure way of making sure the rock has enough time to shed all the internal build up...
Cooking it or Curing it in a dark environment. How long? However long it takes until your "dunking and swishing" produces no detritus.

I, unfortuanatly am curing my rock in tank. Its been 3 months and my rock is STILL shedding tons of stuff. It looks pristine though! The Purple and ORange Coralines are AMAZING. Tonight I actually took a Mag 9.5 (with a hose on the output) and blew out my rock. OH MY GOD. I almost tore it down and started cooking. But not yet... I have worked hard to get it to where it is and I will stay the course. But my life would have been SO much easier if I just followed SeanT's post and cooked it for 6 weeks or so.

 

[bureau13]

I don't see this addressed anywhere in the thread...there is sort of an implied opinion (or maybe question) in the title that suggests the Miracle Mud filtration may have been responsible for the phosphates in the rock. I'm reasonably certain this isn't true, I've run an Ecosystems MM refugium, as have many others, and they're not really known to cause problems like this. At least, I haven't noticed anything like it, and I haven't read any threads by people who have.

jds

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6586827#post6586827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aubee91
[BThe operative word there was better. The whole idea behind removing the phosphate from the rock in the first place was to prevent it from gettting into the water. Putting the phosphate in your tank water is hardly a better way to remove the phosphate from the rock. If it gets in the water it can grow nuisance algae and inhibit the skeletization of stony corals. [/B]

Right... that must be why my tank is full of algae and corals that don't grow:lol:

I think everyone is missing my point here--the phosphate from rocks is a complete non-issue. It's a freaking red herring. Nobody even contemplated cooking their rocks until the promise of a miraculous bare bottom system that would never have algae fell flat on its face. You can't blame the sand anymore, so you have to blame the rocks. Yet many people still have algae problems after cooking their rocks. At this point, reasonable people might start thinking that there is a problem with bare bottom tanks called complete lack of nitrate control--that's what is causing bare bottom tanks to have algae blooms. There is just no space (compared to other systems) for de-nitrifying bacteria to live, especially with the high flow in most bare bottom systems bringing highly oxygenated water into the live rock, therefor negating what little anaerobic bacteria lives in live rock to begin with. Of course, the answer to this is usually "Well, we have such powerful skimmers that this isn't an issue." I've done a little research on this, and it's nonsense. Let's take one of the best protein skimmers on the market--the Deltec line. For example, the AP600 is rated for a 200g tank. The amount of water that flows through it is 160g/hour. So in one hour, the skimmer isn't even turning over the capacity of the tank. The idea that nothing will start breaking down into nitrate over the period of one hour is crazy, and in a system with little de-nitrifying bacteria, once it's made it to nitrate, good luck getting it out of the water.

It is interesting to me that most bare bottom warriors blame a part of the system (phosphate) and then turn around and tell you that you can't measure it when you tell them that your non-BB system doesn't have phosphates. So if I can't measure it, how can you guys be so certain that it's an issue in your tanks IMO, this whole phosphate obsession is completely missing the point--phosphate is a part of any system, period. If you have no phosphate in your tanks, you have no chance of any corals living. The only thing you need to do is keep it reasonably under control, and this is easily accomplished with good husbandry and phosphate absorbing material. NOBODY ever needs to cook their rocks; all you're doing is destroying life on the rocks while briefly putting off another crash since you haven't considered the flaws in your system.

 

[finneganswake]

Another point I thought I should bring up regarding this voodoo, er, uh, rock cooking process--is anyone troubled by the idea that the main proponent of this brainwashing is a person whose tank looked like this?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=3908861#post3908861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeanT
Before pictures.
All of these are from this Summer.

Personally, I think that someone who let their tank get to this point is the LAST person we should be taking advice from:lol:

 

[xtrstangx]

I think we should let this thread die, finneganswake, rather than continue it. I think the original poster got all the ideas he needed.

Good day and happy reefing.

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595292#post6595292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtrstangx
I think we should let this thread die, finneganswake, rather than continue it. I think the original poster got all the ideas he needed.

Good day and happy reefing.

Well, if you don't like it, maybe next time you should think twice about calling people uneducated when you only have six months under your belt and can't think of any ideas of your own to counter mine.

 

[fishman805]

Those pictures remind me of someone who jumped into the reef hobby too quickly and overstocked then paid the price..... "ME"...

I learned my lesson after losing a crap load of money and killing off several good pieces that deserved a better chance than I gave them......

I do agree that this thread should be considered dead.... It's now turned into a bickering match.....

Oh and before someone jumps me..?? Although I do have over 30 years in this hobby, all but one year has been FW... I've learned a great deal about the SW side and now enjoy three ( 3 ) well running reef tanks....


Bob

 

[finneganswake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595441#post6595441 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishman805
Those pictures remind me of someone who jumped into the reef hobby too quickly and overstocked then paid the price..... "ME"...

I learned my lesson after losing a crap load of money and killing off several good pieces that deserved a better chance than I gave them......

I do agree that this thread should be considered dead.... It's now turned into a bickering match.....

Oh and before someone jumps me..?? Although I do have over 30 years in this hobby, all but one year has been FW... I've learned a great deal about the SW side and now enjoy three ( 3 ) well running reef tanks....


Bob

Look, we've all made mistakes and it's great to learn from them. My problem is that SeanT is selling a very drastic measure that is a supposed cure-all when he's only recently had a tank full of algae. Where's the long term proof that this method works, and why aren't we listening to people who've had long term algae-free tanks, as they would logically be the experts on this subject? I'm frankly sick of seeing almost any issue that is remotely related to algae being answered with "Cook your rocks because SeanT said so, and he posts a lot so he must be right!" It's also alarming to see that the same people who listened to these guys tell them to rip out their sandbed (another drastic, unneccesary, and counter-productive measure) because this was going to end all problems haven't learned from that mistake and are lapping up their next miracle system. This reminds me so much of the fad diets that go around all the time; each of them promises a miracle and everyone buys their products until they figure out they aren't losing any weight. Then they try the next miracle diet FROM THE SAME PEOPLE and wonder why they don't lose any weight. Then they go for gastric bypass surgery without considering that maybe, just maybe, if they ate healthy food instead of eating McDonalds every day, they wouldn't have to go to such lengths. The fact is that selling better reef husbandry isn't sexy, but without it, you can lose your sandbed, cook your rocks, and juggle your skimmer as much as you want, and you'll never have a nice tank that consistently stays problem-free because you don't understand the basics.

 

[xtrstangx]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595326#post6595326 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Well, if you don't like it, maybe next time you should think twice about calling people uneducated when you only have six months under your belt and can't think of any ideas of your own to counter mine.

This thread has moved from being helpful to you trying to be right and put others down. Quite frankly, your actions are childest at best now.

I'm done posting with this thread.

Good day and happy reefing.

 

[sidjam]

there is no way i would ever cook my rock.

 

[fishman805]

Although better judgment tells me to let all this go, I do have to add something to what I posted about my 37gal tank.... When I mentioned that I had "cooked" my LR, What I should have mentioned is that I only kept the rock in the dark long enough to kill off the algae that had taken over the LR that I'd gotten... I guess now by someone else's standards, I did not truly cook it but merely was able to rid the rock of most of the algae that had taken it over....It was only kept in the dark for a couple of weeks and that had been enough to give me a good fresh start with that tank....

I've always been a proponent of good husbandry over gimmicks... I do see the benefits of cooking but I also know that that is just a stop-gap and will never be the be all and end all .... There are folks here that will argue that you don't need to do water changes just as there are many more who say that it's the best way to prevent problems from occurring in the first place....

There are folks who rely solely on "gadgets" to keep their tanks running while there are still others that have had great success running with UG Filtration... some use skimmers, some don't... Some run BB and some run the other end with plenum tanks....

All I can say is that what I finally did seemed to work for me... Water changes, mixing my salt with RO/DI, good skimmer,UV,sump and fuge and low bio-loading and not over feeding... If cooking your rock works for you..?? then great ...by all means carry on with it... Truth is, I don't think that there is anyone running a maintenance free tank on this planet and I suspect there never will be...


Bob

 

[Boat Racer]

Bla,Bla,Bla,Bla

Bla,Bla,Bla,Bla

I'm cooking my L/R and changing from SSB to BB.DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If some of you dont want to cook or go BB then dont.But shut the hell up about it and lose the cocky attitude.

 

[finneganswake]

Re: Bla,Bla,Bla,Bla

Re: Bla,Bla,Bla,Bla

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6596742#post6596742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boat Racer
I'm cooking my L/R and changing from SSB to BB.DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If some of you dont want to cook or go BB then dont.But shut the hell up about it and lose the cocky attitude.

Ah, I love democracy. Agree with me or shut up:lol:

Just don't ask for my help when your nitrates spike (they will in a bare bottom tank) and you have to cook your rocks bi-monthly to keep it from being overrun by algae.

On a serious note, did you switch to BB and kill your rocks because you were having problems or just because it's the cool thing to do on RC? If you were having problems before, it won't solve anything long term, and if you weren't having problems before, you will now.

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595184#post6595184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Another point I thought I should bring up regarding this voodoo, er, uh, rock cooking process--is anyone troubled by the idea that the main proponent of this brainwashing is a person whose tank looked like this?

1. The only one who is attempting to brainwash is you.
The one who knows nothing about the process.

The pictures you posted were the BEFORE I "cooked" my rock photo's. That rock came from a reefers tank who had it running for 6 years I believe.

You forgot the AFTER pictures.

But it is like you to only present one side, the side you want seen, and not the whole.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=3908871#post3908871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeanT

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595692#post6595692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
My problem is that SeanT is selling a very drastic measure that is a supposed cure-all when he's only recently had a tank full of algae.

SeanT is NOT selling anything.
He, I, is GIVING away free, good, sound advice.

Recently, that picture is almost two years old.

Once again...you like to shroud the truth you don't like.

 

[Boat Racer]

You dont get nitrates from BB.What a retarded statement If you put clean cooked rock that doesnt shed in a bb tank with high flow and clean your prefilter regularly you wont get nitrates.I am cooking my rock because it was cured in my tank when I set it up and it still sheds as much every day as it did the day I started.I had a nitrate problem from my uncooked uncured rock that I put in my tank.Your realy getting under my skin with your all your anti babble.Get a life!.....Your way or no way rite? Whatever

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595692#post6595692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
Where's the long term proof that this method works,

Hmmm...let's see.
My tank, Weatherman's tank, Bomber's tank.

Many, many, others who have "cooked" their rock and has posted in dozens, if not hundreds of threads.

There is the proof, you have read it, but once again you lie to hide the facts.

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595692#post6595692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
I'm frankly sick of seeing almost any issue that is remotely related to algae being answered with "Cook your rocks because SeanT said so, and he posts a lot so he must be right!"

Yep, it's just me who suggests it.
Yet another lie.

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6595692#post6595692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by finneganswake
This reminds me so much of the fad diets that go around all the time; each of them promises a miracle and everyone buys their products until they figure out they aren't losing any weight. Then they try the next miracle diet FROM THE SAME PEOPLE and wonder why they don't lose any weight. Then they go for gastric bypass surgery without considering that maybe, just maybe, if they ate healthy food instead of eating McDonalds every day, they wouldn't have to go to such lengths.

What a ludicrous analogy.
Get a grip.