?'s with QT, Ammonia and Cuparamine
- Thread starter sfboarders
- Start date
wooden_reefer
New member
I think many slow wasting away deaths of fish is the result of exposure to ammonia as low as 0.1 ppm for long enough period.
In a book written with salmon in mind, safe long term exposure is stated as 0.006 ppm ammonia. I wonder how that number is arrived at, but I won't chance greater than 0.1 ppm ammonia for longer than a day or two in transport. An old book of mine quoted 0.1 ppm as high limit for brief exposure.
Once a fish has been transported to your care, it should no longer experience significant ammonia. It is almost always possible to prevent ammonia.
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sfboarders
New member
krowlee, Can I mix this baked mixture with some RO water and store it? And add to my tank as necessary?
My salinity is at 1.011 right now so one more batch of RO water change and I should be good at 1.008. My pH was at 7.8. I added some Kent Pro Buffer and got the pH to 8.2. I didn't want to use the Baking Soda in the refrigerator or the one in my son's diaper pail. :rolleye1: I'll hit the grocery store today.
wooden_reefer
New member
Well, some thing about this is obvious, some is not.
If you change 75% of water that has 0.4 ppm ammonia in a QT that has no nitrification, you will end up with 0.1 ppm, IMMEDIATELY after the WC. Is 0.1 ppm OK or perfect?
Then, what if there is stuff left behind like uneaten food particules and poops. The part that is not removed will also decay to give ammonia.
RBU1
Moving on Up
I think you need to do a little more research. Here is an article for you. 0.8 is still considered safe. Not desired but not deadly.
http://www.instantocean.com/uploade...ceanKnowledge/SeaScope/Past/SS_Vol04_1987.pdf
wooden_reefer
New member
Ok, go for the highest that you think you fish can handle.
I think the long term consequence is not clear. Internal parasites may have a chance to spread after a fish has been weakenned. I think many slow wasting away diseases are the results of sub-lethal exposure to ammonia.
The point is also that it is easy to avoid ammonia altogether, if one plans ahead.
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RBU1
Moving on Up
Were do you get your information from? Do you have reference material you can refer me to?
wooden_reefer
New member
I will look for the names of my books and authors. I know it is good for science.
I want to ask you a question.
I know that there is a practical reason to have a general idea of how high fish can take ammonia. There is practical value of this knowledge in transport of fish and in rare instances QT in fish when you use a drug that interferes with nitrification.
However, suppose author one says 0.1 is the upper limit and another says 0.8 ppm, how would to preceed with this knowledge?
You need to know what species were used, how long they have been exposed, and last but not least, how long, in months up to a year, the samples have been monitored.
You know that ammonia is very toxic to fish. Do you want to push the limit to as much your fish can bear statistically?
I really don't. I go with the low limit.
You do what you think is acceptable.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Wood its just like everything else in this hobby. Most of it is open to discussion. Everyone has their own opinion. To answer your question, I would like to see were its is documented about the .1 you mention. I pointed you in the direction of my .8 documentation.
Unfortunately your reference is over 20 years old. I accept that different species have different sensitivities to ammonia levels, but I think you're being overly optimistic with 0.8 being harmless.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#15
Also sick fish are already weak and stressed enough; why not minimise this stress by aiming for no detectable ammonia levels?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#15
Also sick fish are already weak and stressed enough; why not minimise this stress by aiming for no detectable ammonia levels?
RBU1
Moving on Up
Unfortunately your reference is over 20 years old. I accept that different species have different sensitivities to ammonia levels, but I think you're being overly optimistic with 0.8 being harmless.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#15
Also sick fish are already weak and stressed enough; why not minimise this stress by aiming for no detectable ammonia levels?
Documented information is documented information. Unitl I see new Documented information thats all I have to go with. I am still waiting for the info from woodenreefer???
wooden_reefer
New member
Be patient. I have them. They are books that I just read again yesterday. I am hoping to get a scanner.
I have been in this hobby decades before the advent of the internet.
That said, I am not claiming to present uncontestable opinions by authority.
My point is more that the reason to contest is not very constructive.
But I will post it. Two sources.
One is 0.1 the other is 0.02 (0.005 for salmon) for safe exposure.
wooden_reefer
New member
First source:
"The marine aquarium in theory and practice" by Dr. Cliff W. Emmems:
Page 75:
"The maximum tolerable level of ammonia , for most fish, is usually quoted as about 0.1 ppm. However, even lower levels than these affect fishes in the long-term …., so it is best to aim for virtually zero…”
Source two:
“Introduction to Fish Physiology” by Dr. Lynwood S. Smith, page 56.
Suggested water chemistry limits.
Ammonia 0.02 ppm, foot note--0.005 ppm better for salmonids.
FWIW!
I really can't say that these are authroity on the issue.
I am saying that there is a very good chance that one should keep even brief exposure to less than 0.2 ppm to avoid long-term consquences.
It is most of the time easy to keep ammonia to virtual zero even in QT if one plans in advance and cycle the medium for QT very well in advance.
A bit more complex is when one has to use a drug that affects nitrification. Hint: choose a drug that affects nitrification the least. Frequently one can squeeze by even then.
"The marine aquarium in theory and practice" by Dr. Cliff W. Emmems:
Page 75:
"The maximum tolerable level of ammonia , for most fish, is usually quoted as about 0.1 ppm. However, even lower levels than these affect fishes in the long-term …., so it is best to aim for virtually zero…”
Source two:
“Introduction to Fish Physiology” by Dr. Lynwood S. Smith, page 56.
Suggested water chemistry limits.
Ammonia 0.02 ppm, foot note--0.005 ppm better for salmonids.
FWIW!
I really can't say that these are authroity on the issue.
I am saying that there is a very good chance that one should keep even brief exposure to less than 0.2 ppm to avoid long-term consquences.
It is most of the time easy to keep ammonia to virtual zero even in QT if one plans in advance and cycle the medium for QT very well in advance.
A bit more complex is when one has to use a drug that affects nitrification. Hint: choose a drug that affects nitrification the least. Frequently one can squeeze by even then.
and there is total ammonia and free ammonia, so if you use say prime and monitor free ammonia you will be fine. i would get a ammonia badge made by seachem, petsmart stocks these or you can get them online. they only measure free ammonia which is the toxic form.
wooden_reefer
New member
And Amquel.
I hope that manufacturers do tests on the long term effect and state the results.
Also. experiments with interference with many drugs. I don't know for sure if Amquel interferes with copper, which is a heavy metal.
So far, I have used Amquel for about ten days with an antibiotics. I never have to use Amquel for ich treatment because I am always ready for the worst and always have enough active medium on hand.
No matter what the results are, I will remain reluctant to rely on these products for eight weeks of QT. It is totally unnecessary regardless.
In the case of an emergency ich outbreak, it may be good to start a cycle ASAP separately and then also treat with Amquel for three weeks. After three weeks, the cycle will be done and one no longer has to use these products.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
Just don't EVER mix Prime or Amquel with Cupramine.
wooden_reefer
New member
May be the standard recommendation for newbies during an ich attack in a reef tank will be:
1. Start a cycle in a separate container at once
2. ASAP, taking care of osmotic stress, do hypo in QT, use Amquel or Prime and as much WC as one can bear.
3. After cycle is done after three weeks, transfer medium to QT.
1. Start a cycle in a separate container at once
2. ASAP, taking care of osmotic stress, do hypo in QT, use Amquel or Prime and as much WC as one can bear.
3. After cycle is done after three weeks, transfer medium to QT.
rick s
Premium Member
What do you use as an "ammonia source?" Specifics please.
And,
1. How much per how many gallons?
2. How often to build up the bacteria?
And then, on an established QT tank, after the fish have been moved to the display tank and the QT is empty: How much and how often to keep the bacterial bed up and ready for the next fish purchase?
Thanks,
And,
1. How much per how many gallons?
2. How often to build up the bacteria?
And then, on an established QT tank, after the fish have been moved to the display tank and the QT is empty: How much and how often to keep the bacterial bed up and ready for the next fish purchase?
Thanks,
wooden_reefer
New member
Nitrification bacteria all over the world exist to process amminia and nitrite. Natural ammonia sources can be animal urine and decay of animal protein, poops and remains of dead animals. You can use either. It can be emusified dead shrimp or fish flesh. Also, you can use an ammonium salt such as ammonium chloride.
About 0.5 ounce of moist shrimp meat (in the usual way sold) will decay in 100 gals of water to give about 1 ppm N amminia. Blend it to milk in some water using a blender before adding, with great care not to spill over. Or you can just finely chop it. I usually add several ppm several times during the cycle. No need to change any water during cycle, but all water after cycling would be the best. Use little water to cycle using a separate container would be the most effecient way.
Nitrification bacteria don't die quickly due to starvation, ie absence of ammonia or nitrite. You generally have a few weeks before nitrification declines by more than half.
You can boost nitrification of any tank at any time after the initial cycle, in anticipation for sudden addition of bioload.
Other than that, nitrification bacteria live on with minimal care.
