Sea grass tank planning

[Betta132]

First off, this is gathering reference for the future, I have no more room for a tank in my current bedroom.
My dream tank is a sea grass tank for the small species that can't be kept in most tanks; Bluestripe pipefish, teeny pygmy gobies, skeleton shrimp, maybe a few dragon eels, and various other things that will be eaten in most tanks. I'd also maybe like some seahorses, and I know a place that sells frozen-food-eating seahorses.
I know seagrass is picky and takes a long time to grow, so here's an idea:
Add a bunch of regular old inert sand to save on cost
Put that sea mud over the top of it for the bacteria and teeny critters
Add piles of live rock rubble in corners
Surround rubble with larger rocks to limit access to the rubble and let pods grow
Add a dose of those tibee (or whatever) pods that crawl on things
Plant sea grass
Plant pretty macroalgae (feather caulerpa? Something red?) on the rockwork
Add something like maybe an arrow crab that will be easy to remove and won't eat pods, just so I have something to look at
Hook tank up to a large 'fuge full of macros and live rock rubble with a grow light over the top
Let tank sit for a few months to explode with pods and grow the sea grass in
And then from there I slowly add things. I'll feed small, nutritious foods, putting them in an auto-feeder so that the tank gets fed a few times a day. Does this sound like it would work? Things would be done slowly, so the sea grass would have plenty of time to grow in.
This would be a fairly large tank, at least 45 gallons, and I'd use the largest 'fuge I could manage. Maybe a Rubbermaid container.
There might be a select few non-stinging corals, soft corals, but I wouldn't put anything mean in.

Things I'd want to try:
Garden eels (hence the deep sand)
Jawfish (so maybe mix some gravel in)
Skeleton shrimp
'Sexy' shrimp
Anemone shrimp
Squat lobsters (Technically not lobsters, very small and harmless)
One firefish, maybe
Bluestripe pipefish (can often be weaned onto tiny frozen food)
Some sort of less picky seahorse
Less picky pipefish, if I can find something more likely to eat frozens and if the tank is large enough to support a picky one
Very small shrimpgoby of some sort + a small pistol shrimp
Maybe a clingfish? (the long, skinny kind that looks like a living stripe with a pointy nose)
Assorted little sea-grass critters like chitons
Maybe something else small and gentle

 

[JLynn]

Firstly, seahorses and eels are under no circumstances to be mixed. The seahorses will die. I doubt pipefish are any more compatible with eels, being of the same genus as seahorses. So you will need to choose between syngnathids (seahorses and their relatives) and eels. If you choose syngnathids, for seahorses, get captive bred. Captive bred seahorses are much more likely to survive and thrive in aquaria, and they are all trained by the breeder to accept frozen. Personally, I recommend Seahorse Source, and I have also heard good things about Southwatch Seahorse Farms. If you choose eels... Well, I can't advise on you that, except to say that if eels are dangerous for seahorses and pipefish, they are probably also dangerous to the "pygmy" gobies you mentioned wanting (I assume you meant Eviota and/or Trimma Sp.? Or maybe Dartfish?). Also, on the subject of food, if you get seahorses or pipefish, you will need to feed them Mysis Shrimp 2-3x a day. Most people feed 1 cube of mysis per pair each meal. It sounds like the tank you are interested in is fairly large (70g or more) in which case you will need to either establish a "feeding station" (can be anything from tupperware to an upturned seashell) to put the syngnathids' meals in, or feed them by hand. With such a large tank, the "toss a couple handfuls in" approach will not work; your syngnathids will starve to death. Personally, with lots of other tankmates to compete with for food, I suggest hand-feeding them, or at least supervising mealtimes and compensating for the food they lose to competition. For more information on basic seahorse and syngnathid care, check out seahorse.org and fusedjaw.com. You should also take a look at marineplantbook.com to check out the different types of macro algae and get an idea of what you want in your tank. Gulf Coast Ecosystems and LA Reefs have the largest selection of macro algae of any online vendors, so taking a look at their stock should also help you figure out what macro algae you want.

 

[Betta132]

Garden eels aren't real eels, I know better than that. They're the straw-looking things that live in holes, these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterocongrinae . They eat small food items and burrow in sand, basically. They need deep sand beds, hence why they're usually a specialty fish.
Well, according to Wikipedia they're technically eels, but they're about as dangerous as a large pipefish.
Yes, I meant Eviota and Trimma gobies, I just couldn't remember the names. I might think about dartfish, but I'm not sure if they might bother the bluestripe pipefish. Bluestripes get 3" long, full size, and are very slim.
Do they make auto-feeders for frozen foods? Is there some sort of a non-frozen mysis food? I could put an auto-feeder over a feeding station (Maybe a cup coral skeleton...) and let that keep them happy. I'd keep an eye on them, of course, but most of the fish I'm thinking are things like tiny gobies, who really aren't good at competing for food.
The place I'm going to has captive-bred seahorses... And, by the time I'll be looking into it, maybe I'll be lucky and people will be breeding captive-bred pipes.
How can one tell if pipefish/seahorses are getting enough food without waiting for them to get thin? Is there a formula for how many bits of food per inch of seahorse?

 

[JLynn]

Oh, wait, was it a typo in the first paragraph when you mentioned wanting "dragon eels"? My bad! I thought you meant Dragon Moray Eels, which are a very bad combo with seahorses. A few people have had garden eels with seahorses in the past and that was fine.

Dartfish are fine with seahorses/pipefish as well. They are small (3"-5") and peaceful, and usually form little trios. Firefish are actually a type of dartfish. Personally, I liked Lined Dartfish the best. For Trimma gobies, I suggest Trimma Tevegae. Other species of Trimma gobies are aggressive to their own kind (although in a large tank, this would not really be a problem), but Trimma Tevegae form little schools with one another. An article I read on the subject (http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...shoaling-fishes-part-3-gobies-dartfishes.html) said that they are typically found in groups of 6-8. The article also describes their feeding habits and behaviors; it is a very good reference on the subject. Quality Marine (a wholesaler) sells Trimma Tevegae, so you could order from them through your LFS when the time comes.

As I mentioned above, people generally feed 1 cube of mysis per pair of seahorses/pipefish per meal. So if you had 2 pairs of seahorses and a pair of pipefish, you would feed 3 cubes of mysis per day.

Captive-bred Bluestripe Pipefish have popped up once in the past couple of years. Jim Welsh bred them. If you want captive bred pipefish in general, he is the one to ask about where to get them. I don't know if he frequents RC, but he does frequent MBI Site. Also, Ocean Rider sells captive bred multi-banded pipefish, which are from the same genus as bluestripe pipefish. Just FYI.

As far as auto-feeders for frozen foods go, no, they don't make them. One person managed to rig up a complicated DIY setup in a minifridge to autofeed frozen mysis; there is an article explaining his set-up in either Advanced Aquarist or Reef Breeders (can't remember which...). The problem with autofeeding frozen foods is that first, they must be thawed, and then once they are thawed, there is a dirty liquid to contend with, which if dumped into the tank would probably wreak havoc on your nutrient levels. The person I mentioned earlier is the only person who has ever managed to automate the feeding of mysis- it's quite an accolade, actually, because seahorse keepers have been trying to figure out how to make it work for years.

 

[Betta132]

Oh, I did put 'dragon' instead of 'garden'. My bad!
Ooh, bluestripes come captive-bred? I didn't know that... Cool.

Do you know if they have gel-packed seahorse foods? I'm guessing not... Hmm...
On the 'dirty water' bit, I've been feeding frozen foods for three years now. I put the food in a little cup of water until it thaws, then I just pour it into the tank. I've never had any issues with nutrient levels or anything... Maybe it just depends on what brand you use and how much non-food gunk is in there.

 

[Innovation]

I'm gonna take a stab at the substrate!

I've done some pretty extensive research on seagrass (reading all the way through 100 page long scientific reports all the way back from 1990's ) and come to the conclusion that for successful growing, you need either 100% mud, or very very fine sand. What is your lighting going to look like? I have found seagrass is not very happy under LED's throughout my research, and better, but still not satisfied with fluorescent's. I would look into MH lighting if you really want to keep them. To further help them develop, addition of CO2 will really help. It does lower pH, but that is easily (easy is a general term ) remedied. The Seagrass Goddess will probably pitch in here soon! Hope I helped!

 

[Betta132]

Okay, thanks a lot!
I guess that rules out the garden eels, then, if the seagrass needs mud.

 

[burnah]

i have seagrass in my fuge and displaytank. be sure to have the sand settled for some time without planting the seagrass, and let the tank run full blown for nutrient settling in the sandbed. you could put in macroalgae for the time, and after 3 months or so plant the seagrass.

try different species and plant quite a few, as many will die off and only a few established in my tank.

i love the idea, but its not going to be easy to get this tank to run. another fish for this habitat, my favourite: seagrass filefish, acreichtys tomentosus. they even breed in aquariums, and are fun to watch.

greetings

 

[Michael Hoaster]

It sounds like you and I are doing pretty similar tanks! My idea is to do a Caribbean Seagrass Biotope. Where we differ is you're going to include the smaller, more timid species that thrive in the seagrass environment, and I'm going to go with a little bigger fish.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

 

[eddiesylas]

Read up in the seahorse forums. Compatibility: pipefish out compete seahorses for food. Keep one or the other. It also seems to take about four to six months to stabilize nutrients in a good planted sand bed, so just track it as you go.

 

[AdamSabina]

Read up in the seahorse forums. Compatibility: pipefish out compete seahorses for food. Keep one or the other. It also seems to take about four to six months to stabilize nutrients in a good planted sand bed, so just track it as you go.

I had a 20 gallon with one h. Kuda and a banded pipe fish for a little over a year before I moved and upgraded. The seahorse is by far a more aggressive eater and I always had to try a spot feed the pipe fish. They seemed to be fine together IMO, but I wasn't able to see how it would have progressed over 5+ years.

Biggest hardship I had was they both hide very often. This make it hard to feed and I knew I needed feed often 2-4 time a day, basically any moment I could.

 

[Michael Hoaster]

From what I've read, there's a great deal of variation in pipefish swimming styles and speed, depending on species. Some creep along the bottom, some are excellent free-swimmers. I'm sure you can find compatible horses and pipes with a little research. The thing that put me off these fascinating creatures is the feeding regime. Too labor-intensive! Maybe if you have a very pod-productive refugium, that would ease the burden somewhat. They are definitely normal seagrass residents, so they should be very happy! Good luck!

 

[Betta132]

Been doing some research... I think I'm going to leave seahorses out. Planning to get one bluestripe pipefish, since I LOVE them, and one of whatever species is captive-bred commonly when I finally set the tank up. Maybe dragonface.
The rest of the critters are gonna be mostly little gobies and things, stuff I've wanted to keep but can't because of my waspfish's big mouth. Sexy shrimp, for example, I'm hoping would be safe with small gobies and stuff.
Had an idea for growing pods; pile a lot of live rock rubble in the back corners, then place larger rock around it to keep the fish out. That way the pods can grow like crazy without the fish getting in there, but a bunch of microbrittles or something can get in there to clean.
Do you think an arrow crab would be alright in the tank while it was stabilizing? Would he eat the seagrass? That's just an idea for something that would be interesting to watch but can be pulled out easily when I want to add other things.
Any suggestions? Fish, shrimp, tiny things... They just have to:
Be safe for even tiny things like mini-gobies and small shrimp
Not cost a huge amount of cash
Not be incredibly hard to care for (no harder than one of the easier pipefish)
Be peaceful in general, no meanies (will scare the tinies)
OR:
Not be difficult
Not be crazy expensive
Get along with pipefish
Be awesome enough to exclude small gobies if it'll eat them (lagoon biotope-sort fish, perhaps?)

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Cool idea! You're building a community of the small, slow, delicate creatures we'd all like to keep, but can't because they can't keep up in our more 'boisterous' communities.

Have you considered a goby-pistol shrimp combo? A great 'odd couple'!

The tricky part is being able (and willing) to evict any creature that doesn't fit in-and do it quickly, BEFORE other members of your peaceful community begin to suffer. I've seen it happen many times before, where people got 'attached' to a fish that doesn't work and they end up with just that one fish.

Make sure you have an effective way to capture and remove 'wrong choice' fish.

 

[Amphiprion]

The seagrass won't require a mud substrate, but a finer one (or predominantly fine with coarse on top if needed due to flow) helps. Adding a bit of mud to the mix with aragonitic substrate can help with phosphorus and nitrogen limitation initially, though. Giving the substrate time to mature a bit can help quite a bit. It isn't always essential, but will make things substantially easier if starting off with completely new material. If you decide to use old sand, I would limit the amount you add. Maybe a cupful or so mixed in, as you don't want too much organic content--wouldn't want the seagrass bed to reach its climax phase right off the bat. Rather, allowing maturity over time helps the bed last longer and support more diversity over time.

Lower flow rate is okay if other inhabitants require it, but grasses also do well with good flow as long as it doesn't damage or tear leaves constantly.

 

[Betta132]

Revisiting this idea... Not as a future thing any more. Well, not quite so future.
I have a 30g Biocube that's being turned into a macroalgae tank. I can't keep tiny gobies in it because I have a yellowtail damsel. I love that little booger, but I can't put teensy things with him. Once he goes, though... I bet I could keep a little herd of gobies in there. Planning to maybe keep a bunch of gobies and then, if I ever do the seagrass thing, add them into it.
How many teensy gobies do you think I could keep in there? Trimmas, maybe a neon, maybe a clown... This includes a small swarm of shrimpies, as well. Anemones, sexies, those pretty floaty shrimp whose names I don't remember... Plus porcelain crabs and maybe squat lobsters.

 

[braden]

Thought I'd chime in here as I'm planning something quite similar. I've been wanting to do one of these tanks for years. I've actually been out of the hobby for quite some time.

I've chosen the Marineland 93-gallon frameless "cube" tank (30"×30"×24") lit by three 150W metal halide pendants. My intention is to grow sea grass as well as mangroves. Fish I haven't really decided on yet. I'd kinda like to include some seahorses; though I know how challenging they can be.

The tank and stand are arriving later this week; at which point I'll order the sump and return pump.

 

[braden]

Thought I'd chime in here as I'm planning something quite similar. I've been wanting to do one of these tanks for years. I've actually been out of the hobby for quite some time.

I've chosen the Marineland 93-gallon frameless "cube" tank (30"×30"×24") lit by three 150W metal halide pendants. My intention is to grow sea grass as well as mangroves. Fish I haven't really decided on yet. I'd kinda like to include some seahorses; though I know how challenging they can be.

The tank and stand are arriving later this week; at which point I'll order the sump and return pump.