Seagrasses Established--I will add KNO3 and Fe

Re: Another Update

Re: Another Update

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15602053#post15602053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by monicaswizzle
iron Dosing:

This one is more of a challenge to determine. I am currently adding 50 drops of the 10% solution--a much higher dose than Sarah recommends. Shortly after dosing this raises the iron to a detectable level on my scale, but still below the lowest reading, which is 0.05ppm. By the next morning the reading is always undetectable on the scale. I have no idea what this means or how to interpret it.

A few years ago I when was experimenting with iron,I was dosing up to three times the amount recomended per week.The only thing I noticed was an orange build up under the rocks in the DT.I never could get a reading with a test kit,but it was only a cheapy kit.
If it is just precipitating to the rock/sand,which is more likely than not,couldn't you use this to your advantage?I mean that if it presipitates so fast,why not inject it into the sand and allow it to build up(presipitate) there,under the sand,where the rhyzomes/roots are at?I would think that the iron can still be utilized by the grass.Instead of allowing it to go anywhere in the water column too be presipitated out.

Clay
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15604662#post15604662 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Samala

In my current shoal/manatee system (40gal breeder) I dose to 0.2ppm Fe, and do so in bursts. As in, drop it all in at once, go about my day, see it later on in the week and redose to that desired level.

.......

Are you pH and alk levels stable throughout the day? I have fought this problem in all my systems so far and cant seem to overcome the use of carbon in the system on a long term basis even with heavy aeration and supplemented CO2. Its a puzzle. One I look forward to solving. :)


>Sarah

Thanks for all the comments Sarah, Clay and Cliff.

Sarah--I would be interested to know how much sand and rock you have in your 40g breeder and how much iron you have to add at one "burst" to get to 0.2ppm. I have been very surprised at how much iron I am adding and still getting only the barely detectable level with my kit (LaMotte).

I like your idea of very slow additons of KNO3--I have considered adding it to my auto replacement water, but every once in a while that system fails to shut off and adds an extra gallon or two of RO water. No big deal in 140 gallon system, but it could be bad if it was dosing with KNO3.

I should do some pH testing now that I have a decent stand of plants. My pH has always been pretty much the same, no matter when I tested it (time of day), but I haven't tested it for at least a month or more--should check for swings.

Time to go eat my fish dinner--
 
Using a dosing pump and a timer will help prevent overdoses if your float sticks. The best set-up would be to use a dosing pump that will only deliver a little more than what your requirement is. Sudden changes in salinity is not good on coral or fish.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15613554#post15613554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Using a dosing pump and a timer will help prevent overdoses if your float sticks. The best set-up would be to use a dosing pump that will only deliver a little more than what your requirement is. Sudden changes in salinity is not good on coral or fish.

Agreed--that is why I would hesitate to add KNO3 to my auto top up water, since it could overdose the tank with KNO3. The salinity change issue isn't a problem even if my float sticks, because the auto top up system only holds 5 gallons when it is full (rare, since I usually am too lazy to totally fill it) and my system evaporates about 2 gallons per day. When the float sticks it adds a max of 3 gallons "too much" fresh water, and more likely only a gallon or less. That amount in a 140 gallon system doesn't make much difference in salinity. In theory a pump system would be better for the auto top up (mine is totally gravity feed), but since our power goes out several times per year, that solution is considerably more expense and maintenance and not really much more reliable/accurrate. If I do decide to somehow "drip dose" the KNO3, I would pretty much have to go to a pump based system, or do it totally independent of the auto top up, which would be just one more tube hanging in my display tank.

So far dropping my KNO3 dose to just 10ml per day seems to be such a small amount that it isn't causing the phyto/diatom blooms that Sarah reports, so I may be able to get by with once a day dosing.
 
PS Cliff--

I am tempted to test your idea of using a screen to cut the light and seeing if that actually helps the grass. I haven't done it (so far) for three reasons--
1) I just haven't read that the sea grasses easily go to over saturated with light. Even the "short" grass is photosynthesizing like crazy (judging by all the small O2 bubbles on the stalks), so I persist in doubting it is getting too much light, despite the clear evidence it is somehow less vigorous than the rear of tank grass. I would be curious if anyone has experience with actually giving shoal grass too much light and how much light that was.
2) I have added a squamosa clam to that part of the tank, and it seems very happy with the amount of light.
3) My time is limited and I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Maybe I could somehow rig up screen over a part of the short grass that doesn't include the clam---hmm that would be a regular construction project.

Really appreciate your comments. Sooner or later I should get around to testing them.
 
OK--another update.

Lately (last few days) I am adding 15ml of KNO3 solution and 10ml of Fe solution. Within a few hours of addition (long enough for complete mixing, not sure how much gets "used" during that time), that seems to raise my NO3 to just below 5ppm and the Fe to just above 0.05ppm (lowest point on the scale). By the next morning the NO3 is back around 1ppm and the Fe can't be measured by my kit.

I haven't observed any negetive effects on my clams or corals. The shoal grass is doing very well. It is spreading rhizomes into the part of the tank with a more shallow DSB (about 3"), doesn't seem to break off and float around the tank as much as it was doing initially (some of that was likely due to transplant shock), is mostly a fairly nice green with just a hint of yellow and is well over 6" tall on some blades. Most of the blades are closer to 3-4" in height, but I am getting more certain that is due to nipping by my two tangs and my red lipped blenny. I am not sure why they prefer the blades towards the front of the tank, but I don't ever see them nip the blades in the rear and they frequently nip the foreground grass.

I am getting some pH swing in my tank. Early in the morning, just before the lights go on, it is "down" to pH of 8.4. Just before the lights go out the pH is at least 8.6, which is the top end of my kit. I have made two adjustments for that so far--I started adding Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) to provide alkalinity, instead of the sodium carbonate mix I had been using. My understanding is that the sodium bicarbonate will release an extra Carbon atom which can combine with water to make CO2, and eventually carbonic (?) acid, assuming the plants don't immediately use up the CO2. So, over the long run this may help lower my pH or at least keep it from continuing to rise.

I also have a small scale yeast digester based CO2 system. It is rated for a 20 gallon tank, but I figure it can't hurt, so I add CO2 during the day and use a valve to divert the CO2 additions to the room instead of the tank after the lights go out. Probably not enough CO2 is being added to make much difference, but it may help a bit with the size of swing since I add it during the time when the plants are using CO2 and don't add it when they are giving off CO2.

I would like to go to a Calcium Reactor to add my CA and Alk to the tank, since those tend to lower pH a fair amount, but the price on those systems is a bit high for my current budget. I also am growing some caulpera in my QT tank and might move some up to my sump and alternate the sump lights with the display lights to have the caulpera release CO2 while the grass is not and vice versa. Since I am trying to breed black cap basslets in the sump, I hate to have no true dark period for the sump, but will consider if that is needed.

My nusiance algae is still present and I need to scrape the glass down about once every 7 to 10 days and harvest clumps of algae from the overflow every week or so. The growth seems somewhat less to me, but is hard to tell. I am glad that it hasn't exploded given the amount of NO3 I am adding to the tank. My cynobacteria (if that is what it is) still occupies much of the "empty" surface of the live rock, but definitely hasn't been expanding.

Still a very high number of small starfish (astrae sp?) in the tank, which may have nothing to do with the nutrients I am adding. The two filefish I have seem to have reduced the number of bristle worms a fair amount, so that may free up the starfish. The other change in tank "hitch hikers" that I have noticed is a pretty dramatic reduction in the number of very small (less than 1/4 inch) tube worms/feather dusters in the tank. I still have a very nice collection of "dwarf" feather dusters (about 1" in "diameter") in the sump, but the number of very small ones is much less. I used to have thousands and now I seem to only have a few hundred or so.

I am happy with how it is going. I will probably stop posting about this unless something dramatic happens. I am still considering bumping up the iron some more to approach a high of 0.2ppm, but probably shouldn't mess with what seems to be success so far.

Thanks for all the comments. Let me know if you have additional thoughts and/or suggestions.
 
Most hobbyists have high CO2 levels in their home. I'm wondering if you put an air pump with a tube running into a sump with an air-stone, would possibly help increase your CO2 level in your tank.
 
Hi Cliff--Thanks for the suggestion. I had read that individuals who live in a fairly air tight home might tend to build up too much CO2 and therefore get too much acid formation in the tank, causing too low of a pH. For those people it is recommended to open a window near the tank to help lower the CO2 in the room and therefore keep pH in the tank higher.

I guess the theory probably works the way you are describing. If my home is relatively air tight (built in 1997 with quality windows--probably is), it may have fairly high levels of CO2 in the room. Therefore running an airstone in the sump, which normally would be done to raise O2 levels, might actually add more CO2 to the tank than diffusion alone does and help to lower the pH.

In my case that might be helpful in winter, but during the rest of the year I keep two windows open in the fairly small room that houses the salt tank because with 800 watts of light over the tank (and no AC in the house) it can quickly cause the tank temp to spike up if there isn't lots of fresh air in the room. So, I assume the air in the room is fairly similar to the air outside, in which case I think that running an airstone would actually drive CO2 out of the tank.

If I am missing the theory behind your suggestion, or if you have other thoughts, let me know. Otherwise I might try the airstone idea once the outside temp is low enough that we aren't leaving the windows open. (Just keeping the windows closed may help some without an airstone, because it should increase the CO2 in the room and cause more to diffuse into the tank. I am still not sure if an airstone would speed up that process, or tend to slow it down. I should review some articles on diffusion of gases into water and such, but maybe I will be lazy and wait for someone to tell me how that all works.)
 
If you have not read this article, Randy goes into details regarding lowering pH in tank water:

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

From this article one suggestion is:

"Methods of Lowering pH: Why They Work

Figures 5-12 show graphically some methods of lowering pH in marine aquaria.

Aerating the water, driving in carbon dioxide, is shown graphically in Figure 5. As carbon dioxide is added, the data point representing the aquarium's pH and alkalinity begins to shift horizontally from the "CO2 Deficient" curve to the normal CO2 curve (green line in Figure 5). Aerating with normal air cannot overshoot, and perfect aeration will land the aquarium on the normal CO2 line. Aeration with interior air that may contain excessive carbon dioxide can overshoot the pH target, and drive the aquarium's pH even lower (Figure 6)."
 
Thanks for the reference. If I have read it it was a while back. Good to review and see if I think aeration will be helpful.
 
Hi Cliff (and others)--

I took time to read the recommended article today and it is a very helpful reference. Thanks.

It seems that additional aeration of my tank might be helpful. In the meantime, switching to using baking soda rather than soda ash as my source of alk and directly adding CO2 during the day using my small yeast reactor has helped about 0.2 units on the pH. I seemed to be "swinging" from a low of about 8.6 to a high of 8.8 (actually, maybe higher, that is the top of my kit's scale). The last few days the swing seems to be from a low of 8.4 to a high just under 8.6.

The absolute high of 8.6 is still a little higher than I would like, but I am actually more concerned about the size of the swing. I might be able to run an airstone off the same timer as my lights so that I am only aerating during the day when the sea grasses are using up the CO2. That might help bring the daytime high down closer to the overnight low.

My only concern in that is that aeration might cause me to have salt creep issues. (It always seems to be something with these systems!)

This weekend I will do some frequent measurement of my pH and decide it it is worth the hassle to add an airstone to the sump.

Happy reefing!
 
Your plants are going to increase in numbers and size. You might want to start shopping for a CO2 injection system and/or keep your eye open for a good used system. ;)


Another option would be to limit the amount of seagrass in your tank and add more macroalgae on some rock to fill the space. Macroalgae does not seem to use much CO2.


I have purchased a 125 g. long used aquarium with metal halide lights to build a seagrass/macro system. I have had it for quite some time and have not done anything yet. Your thread is the first to come along that has discussed the problems you run into in setting up a seagrass planted aquarium. :thumbsup:


My biggest concern is the algae type problems in a seagrass planted aquarium. I was thinking about hooking the seagrass tank in-line with my display tank?


How are your algae problems?
 
Well Cliff, I am fine with my algae levels, but I think I tolerate a lot more "mess" than some do.

I need to scrape algae from the front glass about once a week if I want the view to remain pretty nice. If I let it go 10 days or two weeks it starts to be thick enough to bother even me. (At about 10 days it gets thick enough that if I am trying to hand feed my pistol shrimp, which lives at the very rear of the tank, it is hard to tell his antennae from the sea grass--if that gives you an idea of how fast it gets how thick.)

I have very little (I would say zero) problem with algae over running or causing any harm to my corals or clams, but there is a fair amount of algae growing on the back and side wall of my tank (which I only clean a few times per year). It is more coraline algae than green algae, but it is probably almost 50-50. I have about three small spots with bubble algae on my liverock, but they haven't grown or expanded for weeks, which is a blessed mystery to me. Much of my homemade live rock is covered with a red fuzzy material that I call cyno, but could easily be a red algae of some kind. It is not slimey to the touch. My fish and snails clear occassional patches and most of the real live rock is dominated by coraline with much less of the red stuff, but if you like a crystal clear looking tank, my tank isn't likely to please. As I say, none of this seems to overrun the corals and the corals are all growing and spreading, so it may inhibit/slow growth some, but isn't really anything but "aesthetic" IMO.

Two places that might bother you more than the above are my overflow, which is often more like an "algae scrubber" system than just an overflow. An occassional snail gets in there, but otherwise nothing checks the growth of the algae but me. It is a black "built in" overflow, so the bottom half or so is very thick with coraline algae. I assume it is too deep (90 gal) for the light to get deep enough for good algae growth. The top 5 or 6 inches get pretty thick with at least three or four species of green algae that I pull out with my feeding forceps about once per week and really try to clean (including a razor to scrape off the glass) about every two weeks. When I clean the area out I fill a small plastic tub with water just so the algae comes off the foreceps and then grab "hunks" and drop them in the tub. Once I drain the tub into my sink and then throw the wet but drained algae into the compost it is easily 1/2 to 3/4 cup of algae removed per week, which is a lot more volume when it is still in the water column of the overflow.) You can't really see that area unless you are tall and look down into the overflow, so the fact that it is there doesn't really bother me.

The second place I am starting to notice some algae is on the blades of grass themselves. Many of them are starting to have short (1/8 inch) little "hairs" that are growing on the blade. Great habitat for amphipods and such, so as long as it doesn't really smother the grass, it is fine with me. It might really bother other folks.

One place I definitely have LESS algae is in the sump, which used to get a fair growth of hair algae that I needed to clean up about every 3 or 4 weeks to keep it from getting "out of control". I almost never need to remove any hair algae from the sump any more. I have one clump that still grows and needs to be pulled every few weeks, but it hasn't spread like it used to and, in moderation, is actually very pretty, IMO.

So, get that 125 out and start growing those grasses! If it gets really out of hand you can always tell visitors you are using the lights to make a great big vat of pea soup.

Have fun, whatever you do.
 
Thanks for the detailed explanation. :)

I was most concerned about the algae overrunning the seagrass and rock. Sounds like yours is what one might expect. I had freshwater planted tanks years ago, but as soon as they really started looking good, the algae took over. ;)

I guess I need to get motivated and put this tank together. My main DT is upstairs. I have this new used tank downstairs with all my sump and equipment. If I hook the 125 into the current system, gravity should serve to provide plenty of water flow. I am hoping that I can pull the chiller off-line after adding the extra gallonage. I am hoping the seagrass will help with the high CO2 levels in my home also.

As stated before I am enjoying following along with your tank's progress.
 
Well, glad if you find my tank of interest.

I too have had problems with algae in my freshwater tanks. All of my tanks (including the salt) get a fair amount of natural light, which is probably at least a part of the problem.

Good luck with the plans to plumb the new tank into the existing system. In general it is very positive to have the greater volume and more tanks to spread out any temperature or nutrient spikes among, but it also means you always have more to do. I have dreams of someday converting my 180 gallon freshwater tank to salt and then plumbing it into the existing 140 gallons of salt that are just through the wall. But I also dream of finally getting the freshwater tank in shape and housing discus. We'll see which happens first, if either. There is always that koi pond plan too.

Cheers--
 
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