Seahorse ID

[Alaukik]

It's not the mineral mix you want, but the vitamin premix.
Shipping costs would be atrocious from Canada to India.

they are not shipping to India. Man!!

I woudnt have cared much if it helped my horses. Mostly we are paying double for most imported items (shipping is always as much as the product).

Are you keeping the egg yolk sealed and refrigerated?
Actually, the egg yolk is doing two things. It is a food, and it is an emulsifier of the liquid enrichment ingredients.
Brine shrimp are known as filter feeders. However, they DO NOT take in fluids other than what is soaked into or is coating food particles that they ingest. They DO NOT pass water through their systems like say a clam does to remove nutrients.
Instead, they capture food particles with their appendages and pass the particles to the mouth for digestion.
By emulsifying liquid nutrients/vitamins/medications, you make particles that can be captured and ingested by the brine shrimp.
While commercial products like selco and selcon use special chemicals for doing this emulsion, DIY forms many times use the egg yolk only.

I have had differing experiences than Dan has with particle sizes in that I've found they will not hesitate to capture and eat particle sizes in the 30 to 40 micron range.
The Artemia Reference Centre at the University of Ghent says only that particle sizes should be not greater than 50 but preferably less.

have you tried w/o vitamin mix??

or can the alternatives like multivitamin tablet or Kent marine Vit C type can work?

also what is the function of beta carotene?


Now I understood the work of yolk.
Egg yolk was not stored. I broke an egg and fed it fresh only.

 

[Alaukik]

Forgot to mention, if they are readily taking the frozen mysis then they probably only need more feedings per day for the next month or so to fatten them up. Live foods are NOT an absolute necessity.

They seem to be eating mysis. I dont exactly know how much they are eating. I have no mortalities as of now. But I dont want to jinx it knock: on the wood). I am floating a good amount of baby brine shrimp also hopefully they will keep up.

Part of the husbandry would be to remove any uneaten foods before they begin to decay. Check especially around and behind rock and decor.
With the numbers of seahorses you have in that tank, I'd be doing large water changes VERY frequently.

Aah!! this is becoming an increasingly problem area for me. Flow is so low that the debris never rises and i have not been able to train them to take food from the dish or anything. My fear is, if they stop eating they might starve.

I would love to understand how seahorse tanks are cleaned.

I am now seriously considering a bare-bottom tank (unless they start accepting food from a tray).

 

[Alaukik]

There are some breeders in Indonesia, so I would not be surprised if they are breeding this species. This species is also bred in Sri Lanka.

Finally some good news..My friend got in touch with his supplier in Indonesia. My Ponies ARE tank bred. But odd thing is he says It will grow maximum to 4" only (and he didnt identify them for me).

 

[rayjay]

You don't have to have very low flow for seahorse tanks. Most of us would have flow rates in the 10 to 20 times tank volume.
What is important is to have protection so intakes cannot trap seahorses, and to have no flow that can dash seahorses against rocks, sides, decor, to do them damage.
You have an especially demanding situation as your tank is REALLY overloaded, and this makes probability of bacteria infestations that may lead to seahorse deaths, much more risky.
I've had H. reidi densities of 24 in a 65g tank but the tank was bare bottomed and I did daily vacuuming/cleaning with minimum 10g water change daily as I did the husbandry.
Like Dan, the pictures you show appear to be H. reidi and they are more likely IME to get to the 5 to 6 inch range.
I don't use feeding dishes in any of my tanks because I found some use it and some don't, so I broadcast feed into the flow of water and try to keep it in suspension as long as possible. Then I have a timer than turns on a filter about 45 minutes later to help remove any particles still in the water column.
Any particles that fall to the bottom, I vacuum out once every day or two.
I don't want the seahorses to feed off the bottom as some food particles on the bottom may be nasty bacteria laden if they've been on the bottom for very long.
All my mechanical filters get cleaned very frequently so as not to provide a foothold for nasty bacteria to culture. Dirtier tanks every other day and tanks with fewer seahorses may be 5 to 7 days.
Baby brine is virtually of no value to them because the size means you would have to have an inordinate amount to provide any nutrition at all. Also, they don't provide the DHA component when not enriched properly.
I had only made up one batch of the DIY enrichment as it was a PITA for me.
I used vitamin premix in it.
Some vitamins, like vitamin C need to be stabilized so you can't just use any specific product we would use.
The beta carotene I think is used to bring out the colours better but I don't know that for a fact.
When I feed the frozen mysis shrimp I add what appears to be about 40 to 50 pieces for each of the seahorses in the tank, as they will not normally eat every piece provided, preferring to only eat pieces that look "perfect" in their eyes, leaving the rest to become bacteria beds.
For me, I prefer more frequent feedings with less quantity than to have fewer heavy feedings.
When I clean my tanks, I use a mag float glass cleaner to scrub down the tank sides of algae/bacteria film, and as I have bare bottom tanks, after I vacuum the debris out, I use a home made cleaner with a handle to scrub the tank bottom. http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/swivel.html
I make sure to move all rockwork and hitching/decor to get all the trapped particles out, even to removing some of the decor and rinsing off the trapped food particles when needed.

 

[Alaukik]

wow! thats quite a procedure.

For me, salt cost itself will be insurmountable.

I think that a semi dialysis kind of a system would be gr8. where you suck out all the leftovers and clean the tank like a normal water change procedure, but we dont throw away the siphoned water, instead we skim and filter the water and put it back after couple of days. technically water "goes bad" after the decay.

the price of water and salt would definately surpass the cost of a good skimmer.

Personally, I made only three water changes in my reef tank(averagely of 30gal) last year. I only have a problem of phosphates, which is due to over feeding on my part.

so I think that this could work. what do you guys think?

 

[rayjay]

An OVERSIZED skimmer is the best recommendation to add to even a tank that is sized suitably for the numbers of seahorses it contains.
Even that isn't enough though as the water "dirties" in ways you cannot test for.
Seahorse don't eat all the foods added so leftovers contribute to poor water quality as they decay.
Also, when they snick their food, they masticate it and pass particulate matter out through the gills and into the water column.
In both cases, filtration doesn't remove all of this, only the larger particulate matter, leaving the remainder to fuel nasty bacteria infestations which are probably responsible for the majority of seahorse deaths in the hobby.
I know of NO filtration available to the hobby at least, that can suitably clean used seahorse tank water.
I know of no one who has succeeded in their attempts to reuse the water as you describe, when seahorses are concerned.
I too have done very few water changes in my reef tanks over my 20 plus years of reefing, but have done many multiple times that number of changes in just my eleven years of seahorse keeping.

 

[Alaukik]

Compared to you, I am just a newbie sir. no offence was meant. I am just curious as hell. so i'll keep on probing, if that's Okay.

For Long, I had followed the ways given in books, many dream tanks and forums. which I had thought were right thing to do. but turned out to be overkill. So I am just looking at the alternatives, If any.

Seahorse don't eat all the foods added so leftovers contribute to poor water quality as they decay.
Also, when they snick their food, they masticate it and pass particulate matter out through the gills and into the water column.
In both cases, filtration doesn't remove all of this, only the larger particulate matter, leaving the remainder to fuel nasty bacteria infestations which are probably responsible for the majority of seahorse deaths in the hobby.
I know of NO filtration available to the hobby at least, that can suitably clean used seahorse tank water.
I know of no one who has succeeded in their attempts to reuse the water as you describe, when seahorses are concerned.

Has anyone tried this kind of thing?

I was thinking of a seperate skimmer, UV and pumps. As the flow is very low in seahorse tank nothing is going to come to my sump skimmer. May be I can start with regular water changes and when the water is as good, I can start recirculation the water in seperate filter tank.

 

[rayjay]

No apologies needed as I never took offense to anything you've written at all.
Remember too that I was a newbie to start but I lost livestock because I didn't have a computer back then to learn about things.
As for seahorses, most of the books written have a lot of info that becomes out of date even by the time the book goes to print.
I trust the long term people on seahorse.org and here for the latest on what works best.
My aim is to try to get hobbyists starting to have the best chances of success in the seahorse keeping hobby as it's not like keeping reef fish or a reef tank.
Skimmers even very much oversized still do not totally take care of the water quality but they certainly do make a big difference. Mine are 6' tall and 4" diameter as seen at http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/skimmer.html
Even cranked up as you can see it is capable of on that page, it still doesn't make the water good enough to not have frequent water changes.
Your mechanical filtration will take care of any of the larger particulate matter in the water column while vacuuming will take care of settle particles. With the addition of the skimmer you remove the dissolved organic matter along with some of the minute particulate matter.
About the only filter I think might improve on that would be a Diatom Filter using Diatomaceous earth.
It too though needs frequent cleaning just like any other mechanical filtration so that bacteria doesn't get a foothold in the trapped matter.
UV is not, IMO, of much value when dealing with seahorse tanks other than the fry tanks, because the nasty bacteria doing the damage are benthic, meaning they don't enter the water column and therefore don't go through the UV but stay on aquarium surface and rocks, decor, filter pads etc....
Just a question on flow, why do you have low flow? It is not necessary and higher flow should help with the probable future arrival of cyano and algae outbreaks.
Please do a lot more research into what you want to attempt to do but with respect to seahorse tanks, not reef or fish only tanks as it does make a difference. You could be saving lives of a lot of your seahorses.

 

[Alaukik]

My aim is to try to get hobbyists starting to have the best chances of success in the seahorse keeping hobby as it's not like keeping reef fish or a reef tank.
Skimmers even very much oversized still do not totally take care of the water quality but they certainly do make a big difference. Mine are 6' tall and 4" diameter as seen at http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/skimmer.html
Even cranked up as you can see it is capable of on that page, it still doesn't make the water good enough to not have frequent water changes.
Your mechanical filtration will take care of any of the larger particulate matter in the water column while vacuuming will take care of settle particles. With the addition of the skimmer you remove the dissolved organic matter along with some of the minute particulate matter.

This is one good looking skimmer. I once tried making skimmer, but didnt think 4" would do the job. But that thing is moving the tank's crap out.

 

[Alaukik]

About the only filter I think might improve on that would be a Diatom Filter using Diatomaceous earth.
It too though needs frequent cleaning just like any other mechanical filtration so that bacteria doesn't get a foothold in the trapped matter.
UV is not, IMO, of much value when dealing with seahorse tanks other than the fry tanks, because the nasty bacteria doing the damage are benthic, meaning they don't enter the water column and therefore don't go through the UV but stay on aquarium surface and rocks, decor, filter pads etc....
Just a question on flow, why do you have low flow? It is not necessary and higher flow should help with the probable future arrival of cyano and algae outbreaks.

I have not made up my mind to do that. My water changes are ongoing. I do realize the stakes. But this is just me trying to get a better understanding.

With UV you got me there. If bacterium is not moving in column, then UV is useless.

I have a pump capable of delivering 660 gph at the tank outlet. I ran the pump @ ~ 80% speed (~520 gph, with even 20X flow I cannot have more than 520gph) and saw that the horses are all pushed up against the overflow/rock. not a single one of em was able to swim. Everyone of em was afraid to release their grip, let alone accept food.

Currently I am running @ about 240 - 250 gph (about 10X) or even less. this flow is comfortable with seahorses. but does very little to keep debris/food in suspension. I have surface skimming, but with nothing coming in column it is not picked up by sump filtration system.

 

[Alaukik]

Please do a lot more research into what you want to attempt to do but with respect to seahorse tanks, not reef or fish only tanks as it does make a difference. You could be saving lives of a lot of your seahorses.

this has been a major part of problem. I tried couple of books and articles. but most of em were not having sufficient data to infer the meaning of a system/recommendation.

if I didnt have reef central, I might have given up and sent those babies back to my friend. The more I ask more I am learning here. :dance:

 

[Alaukik]

One more thing. I have been keeping my seahorses @ about 77-78F.
There are many recommendations calling for lower temperatures (72 - 74F), to reduce the bacterial growth in tank. Is this absolutely necessary?

now i know for sure that this is H.Reidi. I can start reducing the tank temperatures.

 

[rayjay]

First of all, there are hobbyists who keep their tanks at warmer levels. However, the majority have found fewer problems in the 68° to 74°F range. Some luck in and have no problems at all, but they are certainly in the minority IMO.
My seahorse tanks have no heaters and I keep my house at 20°C or 68°F which is what the seahorse tanks are at most of the time. At night I have the heat lowered and the tanks cool off a bit, but still no problems.
It is not a guarantee that everything goes well, but I've had a lot fewer problems since I've removed the heaters than before at the warmer temps.
Over the years I've had Angustus, barbouri, reidi, kuda, erectus, and zosterae and they all live in the cooler waters, just not as active as in warmer water.

 

[Alaukik]

what is the best temperature to have moderate activity of seahorses and also have some reduction in growth of bacteria?

my seahorses are slow as it is. they always used to give me a scare in the morning with their tails around their head and just floating around.

 

[rayjay]

74°F works fine for a lot of people.
Seahorses have to expend a lot of energy moving around so they tend to conserve at lot by not moving like you expect other fish to be doing.
Activity can vary with species as well as with individuals.
Pregnant males are the least active IMO.

 

[TamiW]

Finally some good news..My friend got in touch with his supplier in Indonesia. My Ponies ARE tank bred. But odd thing is he says It will grow maximum to 4" only (and he didnt identify them for me).

IMHO, I'm going with young H. taeniopterus. I don't have much experience with these guys as juveniles, but these have the backwards tilted coronet of the H. kuda complex. If H. taeniopterus, expect big seahorses. Could also be H. kelloggi, I believe there was a lab in india breeding them for a while.

Tails wrapped around their head is frequently a sign of distress. I would be concerned if I saw that behavior.

The problem you refer to not having a good system recommendation is a common problem across marine aquariums period. The problem is, there are so many different ways they can be set up.

I worry when you mention that the cost of salt for frequent water changes is a problem. A skimmer will not remove all the bad stuff. You're talking about setting up a mini water treatment system, and the cost of something like that will far outstrip the cost of salt.

How low flow are you talking. For seahorses this small, the flow does need to be a little lower than the range I'd normally recommend, but there is a common misconception that seahorses need very low flow tanks, and that's just not true. Remember, these guys come from the ocean, and even the calmest waters have significant movement. You don't want a central point where they can be pushed up against an intake or overflow. It's about defuse flow, which can be tricky to setup. For their size though, the flow rate you have is probably right.

Most breeders consider these size seahorses fry still, and treat them as such. I think that's part of your problem, as they're in a display tank. Most breeders would have them in a bare bottom tank where syphoning is easy. That is one more problem with seahorses being sold at this size. You're friend gave them to you, which is a little different, but there is a lot of concern because a lot of seahorses at this size make it into the market. For most aquarists, raising them is an impossible task.

If I were in your shoes, I'd treat them as baby seahorses, put them in a smallish-nursery connected to a sump, and feed them several times a day to fatten them up, and syphon the bottom 1-2 times a day. I suspect that will do more for their survival than anything else. You may also want to consider adding airlines to the aquarium for water circulation. It won't provide horizontal flow, but strategically placed open airlines can do a good job churning water and keeping food in the water column for longer than it would otherwise.

There was a thread somewhere with someone from India trying to find food sources for his seahorses, I can't remember which forum. However, he did find that he could catch local shrimp from streams. I realize India is a big country, but it might be worth checking out the local wildlife. Also check for shrimp farms, and see if any will sell you the young shrimp.

 

[Alaukik]

IMHO, I'm going with young H. taeniopterus. I don't have much experience with these guys as juveniles, but these have the backwards tilted coronet of the H. kuda complex. If H. taeniopterus, expect big seahorses. Could also be H. kelloggi, I believe there was a lab in india breeding them for a while.

Upon many foto IDs I am inclined to wards Reidi or taeniopterus (as you have indicated). But i dont think that it is kelloggi. I can be wrong also, these guys change color based on environment.

Tails wrapped around their head is frequently a sign of distress. I would be concerned if I saw that behavior.

oh.. ok. Now i got it. When i transferred them to this tank, they were doing that for a couple of days. but with proper lighting cycle (or some other reason) they stopped.

The problem you refer to not having a good system recommendation is a common problem across marine aquariums period. The problem is, there are so many different ways they can be set up.

well that is one another reason i am writing here. I made them something, based on my best understanding. But when that is not doing the job, its time to ask for directions.

I worry when you mention that the cost of salt for frequent water changes is a problem. A skimmer will not remove all the bad stuff. You're talking about setting up a mini water treatment system, and the cost of something like that will far outstrip the cost of salt.

I am not against water changes or anything. nor out of funds to buy salt. I believe in finding a median way. the information available on these guys is very limited. every scientific journal or credited paper ends with "more reaserch required".

How low flow are you talking. For seahorses this small, the flow does need to be a little lower than the range I'd normally recommend, but there is a common misconception that seahorses need very low flow tanks, and that's just not true. Remember, these guys come from the ocean, and even the calmest waters have significant movement. You don't want a central point where they can be pushed up against an intake or overflow. It's about defuse flow, which can be tricky to setup. For their size though, the flow rate you have is probably right.

can you please describe a typical seahorse habitat or direct me towards an article that has details about them. I would love to understand more about their habitat.
you are absolutely right, I am also suspecting that sea connot be stationary. but how they keep juvenilles safe from tides and what not?

Most breeders consider these size seahorses fry still, and treat them as such. I think that's part of your problem, as they're in a display tank. Most breeders would have them in a bare bottom tank where syphoning is easy. That is one more problem with seahorses being sold at this size. You're friend gave them to you, which is a little different, but there is a lot of concern because a lot of seahorses at this size make it into the market. For most aquarists, raising them is an impossible task.

Coudnt agree with you more. As soon as Dan pointed out their size, I realized that these horses are still juvenilles.

Right now I am feeding them 2 cubes of frozen mysis a day, with a spoon full of live baby brine shrimp. i am culturing adult brine shrimp also, but i am still 2 weeks away (fingers crossed).

I would have been happy to give them all away, but I dont trust every aquarist to keep up with them. But still i was able to give away 7 of them to an experienced aquarist.

but there is a lot of concern because a lot of seahorses at this size make it into the market. For most aquarists, raising them is an impossible task.

Oh! please dont be so omnious.
I know, in buisness, people dont care for even a single life of fish. Passing it off as natural. But I have 13 irreplacable lives to take care of.

If you can help me with this. I would appreciate your help very much.

If I were in your shoes, I'd treat them as baby seahorses, put them in a smallish-nursery connected to a sump, and feed them several times a day to fatten them up, and syphon the bottom 1-2 times a day. I suspect that will do more for their survival than anything else. You may also want to consider adding airlines to the aquarium for water circulation. It won't provide horizontal flow, but strategically placed open airlines can do a good job churning water and keeping food in the water column for longer than it would otherwise.

Can airline still work in this. I mean what about gas bubble disease. I read that seahorses like to play near the air bubbles also. I had to put 2 layers of bubble trap and filter media to make sure no bubble goes to the top.

Right now i am splashing all of my flow (approx. 1000 lph) on the tank wall. while feeding, systems stays offline for more than an hour.

There was a thread somewhere with someone from India trying to find food sources for his seahorses, I can't remember which forum. However, he did find that he could catch local shrimp from streams. I realize India is a big country, but it might be worth checking out the local wildlife. Also check for shrimp farms, and see if any will sell you the young shrimp.

yes, India is big and full of ppl.

But there are only few aquarist at enhanced level of experience. I asked a breeder recently, he also had a BB tank (+2 kudos) and is able to breed them in about 65 gal tank. I have to find a better way to communicate with him (language problem and yes, we have more than 100 different common languages here ).

I also got reccommendation to feed fry of mollies and live freshwater shrimp. live shrimp is unfortunately not availabe here. also I am hesitant to feed them fry of mollies. From what i understand, they provide only fat and not the nutrition.

what do you think about blood worms or black worms?



PS : please read this post with gentle tone. I am not trying to be rude

 

[Alaukik]

Most breeders consider these size seahorses fry still, and treat them as such. I think that's part of your problem, as they're in a display tank. Most breeders would have them in a bare bottom tank where syphoning is easy. That is one more problem with seahorses being sold at this size. You're friend gave them to you, which is a little different, but there is a lot of concern because a lot of seahorses at this size make it into the market. For most aquarists, raising them is an impossible task.

One more thing. I didnt understand your comment about display tank.
I have made a seperate tank for seahorses only.

Also, one more thing. do they pick things up with their tail? I thought i saw one of them trying that and nip.

oh heck one more , can you list down some premunition tips. Common diseases are the first thing i read. i always start with 'what NOT to do'.

 

[rayjay]

Still, the addition of the bbs won't add much to the nutrition of the seahorses as it would take a heck of a lot more than that to accomplish any success, especially for 20 seahorses even of juvenile size.
More frequent feedings of the mysis will work MUCH better IMO.
By watching full feeding times, you should be able to gauge after a bit just how much to feed so that you aren't adding too much per feeding, and just add that amount more often each day. Hopefully your are thawing and rinsing well before you add them to the tank.
Have you lost 7 already? I noticed you started with 20 and now you are talking about 13.
IMO and that of many others, gas bubble disease is NOT caused by air bubbles, especially the size of what comes out of open ended air line tubes. I never use airstones, just ridgid air line tubes and have at least one in every seahorse tank, and use them extensively in fry and juvenile rearing tanks as the only water movement for rearing.
By not having them in the display tank, it is much easier to wipe down the glass sides and bottom to remove the bacterial slime that accumulates there, and easier for vacuuming out the detritus that forms bacterial beds. Any equipment is best placed in a sump that feeds the rearing vessels, also making for easier cleaning.
And yes, my seahorses like to perch on the airline so the bubbles come up over them. I think it's like us scratching our back on a doorway, it helps to relieve the itch they get, probably from parasites that are always present.
Fresh water fish are NOT a good choice of food even though mollies can be acclimated to salt water, having the wrong fatty acid profile, they don't provide the necessary DHA component for the seahorses, and, I believe it has been known to cause liver disease in some marine fish. This is not true though of fresh water shrimp, especially if they have been enriched with something containing the DHA.
I don't know the nutrient content of blood worms and black worms.

 

[TamiW]

Alaukik, I was in a hurry when I wrote that and trying to hit on a number of points, I apologize if I came off as brusk. I wasn't suggesting that you were doing anything wrong, rather that many things are wrong with "the system" as it were, with young seahorses being moved into homes too soon. I am in a hurry again, I will write more when I am back at the computer later.

Just a quick question - can you tell me a little more about the area you live in, and if you are near any bodies of water, and what type? Ocean, streams, ponds... the part of the country would help to; to get some idea of what resources you might have.

Lastly, I can ship you some algamac-3050 if you're willing to pay for shipping. I know it will take some time to get there, but as they have a lot of growing to do, I'm sure it will be helpful anytime you get it.

Anyway, I will answer more later. Good luck!