secret ingredients?????
- Thread starter Bebo77
- Start date
onthefly
Getting back into it!
sps corals assimilate ammonium from the water for nitrogen.
Are you suggesting that NH3/NH4 levels are high enough in out systems to supply a nitrogen source large enough for all the zoox populations? With all the nutrient poor/lightening tanks around I would disagree.
They don't need predation and I believe its more like 3%.
I used the word predation "loosely". Grouped in with that, I was also including the absorption of DOC's.
Regardless, zoox populations within the corals are declining in uber-low nutient systems. Less Zoox, less color....that simple!
Are you suggesting that NH3/NH4 levels are high enough in out systems to supply a nitrogen source large enough for all the zoox populations? With all the nutrient poor/lightening tanks around I would disagree.
They don't need predation and I believe its more like 3%.
I used the word predation "loosely". Grouped in with that, I was also including the absorption of DOC's.
Regardless, zoox populations within the corals are declining in uber-low nutient systems. Less Zoox, less color....that simple!
kimoyo
Active member
I didn't realize this was simple but let me ask you this. If zoox populations decline so much (which it might), how does photosynthesis account for 80% of the corals nutrition?
I try not to suggest anything on RC anymore.
Exactly how do you think these Dissolve Organic Compounds are used by the coral?
Bacteria live on surfaces. Corals have a slimey coating on them that house bacteria. Some bacteria (heterotrophic) capture organics and break them down into ammonia/ammonium. The coral then assimilates that ammonia into itself to use an N source. Thats how you have nutrient poor tanks with corals still growing. Still simple?
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onthefly
Getting back into it!
Well, the process is anything but simple........but what creates color in corals? Zoox....right? Can we agree on that? That's simple!
So, here's the scenario: my tank Faded colors thread with perfectly stable parameters, excellent lighting, good husbandry, an excellent source for corals (Upscales, so no shipping involved), but no external food source (no fish therefore no food needed).
So, I buy a gorgeous coral from Travis, after acclimation and interceptor dip, coral goes into the tank. Within minutes, PE looks great, within days I can already see a nice spread at the base and growth tips. Sometime around week 3-4, the coral loses PE, color begins to turn a drabby version of the original, and decalcification begins (skeletal structure of the coral begins to shrink). IMHO, during the first few weeks the coral utilized as much of its energy stores as it could, but in the end the coral began starving. Why?....because there is not enough nitrogen (or something) present in the system to sustain the bacterial and zoox populations.
I'm not a coral biologist and don't know about surface populations of bacteria or what processes or metabolic "pathways" they contribute to. If there is not enough material (DOC, ammonium, whatever) present in the water column, bacterial and zoox population will decrease until a new "carrying capacity" is reached. Unfortunately, I believe that the new CC is too low to sustain the 80% (or 97% if you prefer) of photosyntheic demands and the corals look like it.
So, here's the scenario: my tank Faded colors thread with perfectly stable parameters, excellent lighting, good husbandry, an excellent source for corals (Upscales, so no shipping involved), but no external food source (no fish therefore no food needed).
So, I buy a gorgeous coral from Travis, after acclimation and interceptor dip, coral goes into the tank. Within minutes, PE looks great, within days I can already see a nice spread at the base and growth tips. Sometime around week 3-4, the coral loses PE, color begins to turn a drabby version of the original, and decalcification begins (skeletal structure of the coral begins to shrink). IMHO, during the first few weeks the coral utilized as much of its energy stores as it could, but in the end the coral began starving. Why?....because there is not enough nitrogen (or something) present in the system to sustain the bacterial and zoox populations.
I'm not a coral biologist and don't know about surface populations of bacteria or what processes or metabolic "pathways" they contribute to. If there is not enough material (DOC, ammonium, whatever) present in the water column, bacterial and zoox population will decrease until a new "carrying capacity" is reached. Unfortunately, I believe that the new CC is too low to sustain the 80% (or 97% if you prefer) of photosyntheic demands and the corals look like it.
kimoyo
Active member
Um, no. The color your talking about doesn't come from the zoox. The color coming from the zoox is brown and thats not what you want.
The first thing I thought while reading about your situation and seeing your from Portland is, why doesn't he just ask Mike (Mojo). Then I look at your thread and in the 4th post Bomber has already suggested that. Go to www.reeffrontiers.com and ask for Mike (He won TOTM here a while back). They have what seems to be a very good local reef club there and will most likely come over to your house to see whats wrong. I know Mike knows this because I've talked to him about it.
I'm not a coral biologist either but this still isn't correct.
If I may chime in for a moment, imo, the most underused 'additive' in regards to our tanks these days is patience. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone move a frag to get it to color up, only to move it to a 'better spot' a month later, then back again a few weeks later. Heck, I wouldn't color up either! I'd be too afraid I did something wrong and get myself exiled to the backyard. Same with actual additives, i.e.: If the cyano is still there after several weeks (in some cases, days), we're ready change the product, the dosage, or the amount. In this case, it would even be hard to tell which method DID work because by that time, we may already be three methods past it. I think we have to remember that our charges aren't a part of our ' gotta have it now' culture and things don't fix themselves in minutes. As long as we keep our water parameters in check, our lighting good, and our water movement sufficient, I believe we've added everything we need.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
Well, well put :thumbsup:
While I've been lucky to have some corals not miss a beat when I first put them in my tank ... I've also had my share that seem to take 3-6 months to do squat more than look more brown + sit there. But a year down the road ... out of nowhere there's that beauty you talked the guy into trading.
Joe started a good thread about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=628974
I've personally struggled with moving stuff too much - with a smaller tank, it's too tempting to pack every inch ... and change things constantly. Yet that means I'm constantly re-acclimating all my corals, with growth and color likely not their best.
IMO, great point. Time has proven to be a key ingredient to my success ... and as I figure I'd love to have these same corals in 5 years [if not 20] - giving a new frag a year in one spot to grow, thrive, and finally color isn't ideal, but can be effective.
While I've been lucky to have some corals not miss a beat when I first put them in my tank ... I've also had my share that seem to take 3-6 months to do squat more than look more brown + sit there. But a year down the road ... out of nowhere there's that beauty you talked the guy into trading.
Joe started a good thread about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=628974
I've personally struggled with moving stuff too much - with a smaller tank, it's too tempting to pack every inch ... and change things constantly. Yet that means I'm constantly re-acclimating all my corals, with growth and color likely not their best.
IMO, great point. Time has proven to be a key ingredient to my success ... and as I figure I'd love to have these same corals in 5 years [if not 20] - giving a new frag a year in one spot to grow, thrive, and finally color isn't ideal, but can be effective.
onthefly
Getting back into it!
Thanks for great points Paul! I didn't realize that color was indepent of zoox.
PNWMAS is a great local club with some stellar members, I've done my share of trading with several members. Perhaps it's time to invite someone over for a beer
Although my specific situation has reversed itself just by adding fish/feeding to the tank, I don't think "patience" (in my specific situation) would have improved the tank. By 2-3 months in my system, after losing PE and most of there color, corals began a VERY slow base up necrosis. Since I started feeding, the necrosis has stopped, color is coming back (which seems to be the slowest thing to recover), and I'm getting growth again.
Good thread!
PNWMAS is a great local club with some stellar members, I've done my share of trading with several members. Perhaps it's time to invite someone over for a beer
Although my specific situation has reversed itself just by adding fish/feeding to the tank, I don't think "patience" (in my specific situation) would have improved the tank. By 2-3 months in my system, after losing PE and most of there color, corals began a VERY slow base up necrosis. Since I started feeding, the necrosis has stopped, color is coming back (which seems to be the slowest thing to recover), and I'm getting growth again.
Good thread!
onthefly
Getting back into it!
Mark - From Joe's thread "They don't really loose color, but pretty much sit"
I wonder, since Joe's corals kept there color....if the "patience" thing is not applicable, especially when coral health (like in my case) is/was declining.
Before I get bashed over the head with a "patience" club.....I totally agree with all the comments about people giving corals time to adjust...so, I'm not disagreeing with you guys on that.
I wonder, since Joe's corals kept there color....if the "patience" thing is not applicable, especially when coral health (like in my case) is/was declining.
Before I get bashed over the head with a "patience" club.....I totally agree with all the comments about people giving corals time to adjust...so, I'm not disagreeing with you guys on that.
Bebo77
Premium Nonpaying Member
ok guys i have the good water quality, good lights and a healthy supply of patience, so now what? I am starting zeo this weekend along with prodibio( high export)... now what should i "feed the corals" i have frozen cyclop-eeze, frozen oyster eggs and frozen mysis.. any other foods that you guys have found that work for SPS corals?
thanks
thanks
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Charlie Davidson
New member
for feedings, I use frozen Rotifers plus cyclop-eeze. as for the secret- good skimmer, good water mantenance ( carbon, rowa, etc).
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