Seeking advice/materials list for wiring Apex controller to 16 remote outlets.

[MountainManReef]

Disclaimer: My electrical experience is extremely limited.

So in an effort to make my garage/fish room as tidy as possible I am looking at placing my Apex contoller and two DC8s in a closet which shares a wall with my sump area.

Power will be supplied to the two DC8s by an outlet inside the closet. I would then like to create 16 different lines which will run through the wall to PVC conduit above my sump, very similar to what Marc Levenson and Drummereef have done with their builds.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1599945&page=38

http://www.melevsreef.com/wiring_outlets.html

Along this run of conduit I would like to have 4 4-outlet (2 gang) electrical boxes. Covered with an outdoor weatherproof electrical outlet cover such as this one.

I have a few questions about the best possible way to make this happen.

1. What is the best type of wire to use for this application? I've received mixed information about whether or not you can use Romex inside of PVC conduit due to heat. was also told that I may be able to share a ground and a neutral wire for each outlet and only have separate hot wires.

2. My greatest source of confusion is how to create individually controlled outlets. From my understanding each electrical outlet receives power from one set of wires (hot, neutral ground, or white/black/green,) meaning I would have a potentially have eight sets of two outlets being controlled. Is there a different type of outlet I can buy for this application?

Any other advice/suggestions/guidance would be much appreciated. This does not seem like it should be overly complicated, but my inexperience is making it more difficult.

Also, thank you to Marc Levenson and Drummereef for the amount of information on this topic (and many others) they have provided.

 

[MountainManReef]

bump

 

[Kroamium]

1. What is the best type of wire to use for this application? I've received mixed information about whether or not you can use Romex inside of PVC conduit due to heat. was also told that I may be able to share a ground and a neutral wire for each outlet and only have separate hot wires.

My first concern is your third sentence here. I suggest you read some more DIY books before precedding any further. What you are asking will take some complicated wiring. You also need to look into your local codes about the romex in conduit. Why, well saftey is the big thing (is your family worth saving a few $$) and insurance reasons if you have an electrical fire and it's not wired to code you may not be covered.

Most places allow "romex" to be ran in some type of conduit but only for a certian distance. "Romex" is not rated for wet/outside locations. So its wise not to run it in conduit which can hold moisture. I would suggest running THHN wire.

 

[Jeff000]

Disclaimer: My electrical experience is extremely limited.

http://www.melevsreef.com/wiring_outlets.html

Along this run of conduit I would like to have 4 4-outlet (2 gang) electrical boxes. Covered with an outdoor weatherproof electrical outlet cover such as this one.

I have a few questions about the best possible way to make this happen.

1. What is the best type of wire to use for this application? I've received mixed information about whether or not you can use Romex inside of PVC conduit due to heat. was also told that I may be able to share a ground and a neutral wire for each outlet and only have separate hot wires.

2. My greatest source of confusion is how to create individually controlled outlets. From my understanding each electrical outlet receives power from one set of wires (hot, neutral ground, or white/black/green,) meaning I would have a potentially have eight sets of two outlets being controlled. Is there a different type of outlet I can buy for this application?

Any other advice/suggestions/guidance would be much appreciated. This does not seem like it should be overly complicated, but my inexperience is making it more difficult.

Also, thank you to Marc Levenson and Drummereef for the amount of information on this topic (and many others) they have provided.

Ok first things first. I don't know what a DC8 is. So once I know this I can help more.

Second. WOW, so much TERRIBLE! information you linked to.

melevsreef link is just full of incorrect ways.
First, run one ground wire and daisy chain it.
Second, too many conductors in a 1/2 pipe.
Third,

my god that is so incorrect I don't even know where to start. You DO NOT just wrap a second wire around one under a terminal and call it good, ***.
Forth, it's a single circuit, they do not need their own neutral, just share one.
Fifth, just because the guy at home depot calls himself an electrician does not mean he is one or knows enough to properly answer your questions.

Your weatherproof in use covers are nice though.

So if you want 8 outlets individually controlled then you need 8 switch legs (8 wires). You can use the same color, just label the wires. You will need one neutral, and one ground. The neutral and ground you will just daisy chain to each receptacle. Unless there is some specific reason to need it's own neutral wire, but like I said I do not know what the DC8 is to say more.

Or do you want 16 outlets individually controlled?
If you want the top and bottom of the receptacle controlled individually then just break the little tab that is between the top and bottom. This will not work if you are doing GFCI.
You will need a 3/4" pipe if you are doing this.

Most places allow "romex" to be ran in some type of conduit but only for a certian distance. "Romex" is not rated for wet/outside locations. So its wise not to run it in conduit which can hold moisture. I would suggest running THHN wire.

Romex is NMD, non metalic damp location. But you can't really put it in a conduit, only a chase. Conduit is considered a dry location.

I would just use#14 solid T90 individual conductors.
I think you Americans use the broader term of THHN for individual conductors though, up here that term just means single conductor with insulation but not any specific type of insulation.

T90 is the nylon jacket, it's thinner so you can get 12 conductors into a 1/2 pipe.

 

[psteeleb]

Both Marc (Melev) and Brett (Drummereef) basically put in an elaborate set of extension cords. But instead of having cords draped all over the place they opted to use PVC conduit for a much cleaner look.

As each of your outlets (unless split) will be plugged in using a standard 3 prong to your APEX EB8 (or DC8), I highly suggest each run include all 3 wires.

The way I see it you have 3 options, but I would not use the 3rd one
1) Conduit with single wires - 14 gauge should work for most applications but if you have a larger load you may need to go to 12 (main return pump). Stay within the load limits of the APEX modules or consider using their high amp module.

2) Use extension cords, remove the female end, cut to length and install your splash resistant outlet boxes to the cord itself (one end now male plug that came with the cord and the other is your custom box). This is what I did on my old 300g system. The splash covers are the only way to go if any of the outlets are in proximity to wet equipment. This modified extension cord route is probably the least expensive route.

3) Romex - I would not run it in conduit for the reasons stated plus it's just hard to pull in conduit without it getting kinks.

As the system is not tied to you home electrical system and run external to the walls may not need to meet any codes (again this is more a home made custom set of extension cords) but I would use the building codes as go bys for all your installations.

keep us posted

 

[MountainManReef]

My first concern is your third sentence here. I suggest you read some more DIY books before precedding any further. What you are asking will take some complicated wiring. You also need to look into your local codes about the romex in conduit. Why, well saftey is the big thing (is your family worth saving a few $$) and insurance reasons if you have an electrical fire and it's not wired to code you may not be covered.

Most places allow "romex" to be ran in some type of conduit but only for a certian distance. "Romex" is not rated for wet/outside locations. So its wise not to run it in conduit which can hold moisture. I would suggest running THHN wire.

I absolutely agree, which is part of my reason for posting. Safety is a major part of the reason I am choosing to remotely house my Apex controller. I have splashed water into powerbars before. Even in situations/configurations I thought it to be almost impossible I've had something go wrong (protein skimmer overflow like a super-soaker.)

I was hoping someone had done something similar to what I am trying to do and had a detailed write-up. I can't seem to find one anywhere on the internet. A lot of the DIY electrical books cover the very basics of wiring outlets, and usually discuss wiring them in a chain. I need 16 individuals, and I am not connecting to a breaker, all 16 of my connections need to terminate into a plug. This is not a very common practice!

Jeff, a DC8 is the powerbar accessory for the Apex controller system.

http://www.neptunesystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Comprehensive-Reference-Manual.pdf

It provides 8 computer controlled outlets (in my case I have 2 of these DC8s, so I have 16 outlets.)

So I need to go from DC8-->Plug-->Wire inside conduit-->outlet on my wall above my sump which is protected by a weatherproof while in use cover.

I was also hoping someone would weigh in about any potential issues in connecting a computer-controlled outlet to an extension line like the ones I am planning.

 

[Jeff000]

Jeff, a DC8 is the powerbar accessory for the Apex controller system.

I was also hoping someone would weigh in about any potential issues in connecting a computer-controlled outlet to an extension line like the ones I am planning.

Ah ok I see what's going on now then.

psteeleb has it for the most part then.

Both Marc (Melev) and Brett (Drummereef) basically put in an elaborate set of extension cords. But instead of having cords draped all over the place they opted to use PVC conduit for a much cleaner look.

As each of your outlets (unless split) will be plugged in using a standard 3 prong to your APEX EB8 (or DC8), I highly suggest each run include all 3 wires.

The way I see it you have 3 options, but I would not use the 3rd one
1) Conduit with single wires - 14 gauge should work for most applications but if you have a larger load you may need to go to 12 (main return pump). Stay within the load limits of the APEX modules or consider using their high amp module.

2) Use extension cords, remove the female end, cut to length and install your splash resistant outlet boxes to the cord itself (one end now male plug that came with the cord and the other is your custom box). This is what I did on my old 300g system. The splash covers are the only way to go if any of the outlets are in proximity to wet equipment. This modified extension cord route is probably the least expensive route.

3) Romex - I would not run it in conduit for the reasons stated plus it's just hard to pull in conduit without it getting kinks.

As the system is not tied to you home electrical system and run external to the walls may not need to meet any codes (again this is more a home made custom set of extension cords) but I would use the building codes as go bys for all your installations.

keep us posted

Yes. Would run the hot the neutral and the ground for each to make it easy. Although not needed depending how you wired it

The cutting the end off the cord would work great if he wasn't trying to control 4 items at each location.

No reason to run anything larger than a #14 wire. You are still running everything off a single circuit, so if you are overloading a #14 then you have other issues too.

So you conduit will come close to the Apex and then all the wires would just pop out and you would put cord ends on the loose wires.
While this would be considered equipment and not really subjected to the NEC, there is no reason to not follow safe practices.

I would personally probably crack open the DC8s and wire them directly, that it probably well outside your ability.

 

[Jeff000]

I gotta ask. What are you all controlling that you need 16 controllable outlets?

I can only figure out 6 different things I could want to turn on and off?

 

[psteeleb]

First off Jeff has some sage advice, use him. I'm no electrician but have wired house remodels and new builds within codes and have done what you are proposing. Personally I've used the cord method, but have also helped others using the PVC and single wire method. The PVC wire method looks cleaner but has to be well planned and is harder to modify if ever needed.

I like Jeff's idea of wiring to the EB 8 directly and actually thought of that in my last build but was concerned about warranty.

As for controller concerns consider that the controller is all upstream of the outlet on the EB8, everything downstream of that is just on/off. Between that and thinking of this as an elaborate set of extension cords and as long as you design it accordingly your concerns should be minimal. If you start working in more features or using common wires your concerns are valid.

Jeff "“ another nice feature of the EB8 is it tracks usage. It is limited to 5A per outlet and 15 amps total. I currently run 2 of them and I'm adding a third, mostly for several light controls, but also to split the overall load back to two separate breakers in the house. The split load also acts as safety feature in the event a breaker trips.

 

[Jeff000]

First off Jeff has some sage advice, use him. I'm no electrician but have wired house remodels and new builds within codes and have done what you are proposing. Personally I've used the cord method, but have also helped others using the PVC and single wire method. The PVC wire method looks cleaner but has to be well planned and is harder to modify if ever needed.

I like Jeff's idea of wiring to the EB 8 directly and actually thought of that in my last build but was concerned about warranty.

As for controller concerns consider that the controller is all upstream of the outlet on the EB8, everything downstream of that is just on/off. Between that and thinking of this as an elaborate set of extension cords and as long as you design it accordingly your concerns should be minimal. If you start working in more features or using common wires your concerns are valid.

Jeff – another nice feature of the EB8 is it tracks usage. It is limited to 5A per outlet and 15 amps total. I currently run 2 of them and I’m adding a third, mostly for several light controls, but also to split the overall load back to two separate breakers in the house. The split load also acts as safety feature in the event a breaker trips.

Thanks, I've been a sparky for 7 years now. The hardest part about helping online is understanding what people are actually trying to accomplish.

Even a large pump like the Hammerhead isn't even 3 amps. So the current draw isn't huge. Heaters have the largest draw by far.

I have
Return pump
skimmer
power heads
blue lights
white lights
ato
heaters

Those are about the only things I can think of that I plug in even. Sure I might have lots of power heads but don't need to monitor them individually.

Splitting over two circuits is a good idea though. I have 3 in my fish room, but it's way overkill.

 

[MountainManReef]

First off, thank you very much for taking the time to read my scenarios and provide such great information.

Secondly, on my last build I used 2 DC8s for the following:

1. AI Sol
2. Vortech MP40
3. Vortech MP40
4. Return Pump
5. Reactor Pump
6. Reactor Pump
7. Reactor Pump (stupid poor planning, I now have a manifold)
8. Kalk Stirrer
9. Heater
10. Heater
11. UV Sterilizer
12. Skimmer
13. ATO
14. Dosing Pump
15. Dosing Pump
16. Wireless Networking Card for Apex Controller

Some of that stuff didn't need to be controlled, it just had to be on. I also had way too much equipment. I am hoping to make things simpler, but I still want 16 outlets since I already have 2 DC8s and I want to easily be able to expand or plug something new in.

I thought Psteelb's idea of using extension cords was a great one actually (also I've seen your presentation on plumbing, thank you for the info,) why won't it work for four separate outlets?

 

[Jeff000]

I thought Psteelb's idea of using extension cords was a great one actually (also I've seen your presentation on plumbing, thank you for the info,) why won't it work for four separate outlets?

An extension cord is a single circuit. So if you used it to connect to the 2 gang box that whole box would be one controller.
You would need 4 extension cords to have each outlet controlled.

All depends on what you are going to end up doing.


And having more of one thing plugged in as it's own controller wasn't something I was thinking about too. But I can see using up a lot of spaces doing that.

 

[MountainManReef]

An extension cord is a single circuit. So if you used it to connect to the 2 gang box that whole box would be one controller.
You would need 4 extension cords to have each outlet controlled.

All depends on what you are going to end up doing.


And having more of one thing plugged in as it's own controller wasn't something I was thinking about too. But I can see using up a lot of spaces doing that.

So could I run 4 extension cords to each 2 gang box? :lol2:

 

[Jeff000]

So could I run 4 extension cords to each 2 gang box? :lol2:

Yup! lol.
Lowes here has the nice blue extension cords on sale, I bought 4 of them on the weekend for like 10 bucks. I think 10' long each.

Just break the little tab between the top and bottom of the receptacles.

Top one has the tab removed. You need to do this on both sides.

You have lots of options to run the cords and make it look nice too. Panduit makes some nice stuff. like these but not limited to.

 

[MountainManReef]

Could I potentially run the extension cords inside conduit to make everything neat and tidy? This would save me the step of having to bundle each set of 3 wires and from having to put a plug on the end (not a big deal.)

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not it will be a pain to pull and if there are any major safety concerns inside conduit.

 

[Jeff000]

Could I potentially run the extension cords inside conduit to make everything neat and tidy? This would save me the step of having to bundle each set of 3 wires and from having to put a plug on the end (not a big deal.)

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not it will be a pain to pull and if there are any major safety concerns inside conduit.

You shouldn't run an extension cord in conduit, and you would need to use a huge conduit because an extension cord is much thicker than just the individual conductors.

But like I said there are a lot of options to have the cords look good still.
Hell you could run the cords inside panduit duct although it's expensive.

 

[MountainManReef]

I may get to this project over the upcoming holiday. I will post the results. Things are much clearer to me now.

 

[MountainManReef]

So I had some time to get started yesterday.

I mounted the first run of conduit and ran some wires before running out of time. I used bundles of 14 gauge solid THHN. I ended up using standard outlets instead of GFI. The outlet everything is plugged into will be GFI and I couldn't justify the additional significant expense for an added layer of redundancy.

Everything is going smooth so far, my only issue is that things are getting crowded in the final box. So if anyone has any old electricians tricks for squeazing a few more wires in a conduit I'm all ears.

 

[woodnaquanut]

Don't try to crowd the conduit. It is made to handle just so many wires at a time. It can overheat if too many wires are forced into it.

There are conduit fill tables available on the web.