Setting up a hospital tank - a number of questions

[DeadDuck]

I’m about 70% sure that our 2 Allardi clowns have something - probably Marine Ich. I’ve noticed some white specks on the fish, but they seem to be really, really, small. They are very subtle – sometimes the dots aren’t even noticeable unless the light hits them at a certain angle. I’ve pretty much got to stick my nose to the glass to see them. However, they don’t seem to be that interested in eating and I’ve noticed the female “running into” the thermometer. (Itching against it?) The male also seems to have shrunken over the last week and this worries me. They also seem to be visiting the cleaner shrimp regularly and while I realize that this wouldn't help them against Ich, I wonder if it's because they want a good scratch?

I'm really torn on whether the fish have: a) Marine Ich b) something different I just don't know about c) nothing and I'm just being paranoid.

So once again I turn towards to gracious community here to help bail me out. (Thank you!)

Is there anything I should do before taking "drastic" measures (chase the fish down, take them to a new tank, and subject them to chemicals) that might be more benign in helping me suss this out?

The current tentative plan is to have both fish moved to the hospital tank while about 7 or so corals, 2 cleaner shrimp, 10 turbo and 8 hermit crabs stay behind in the display tank. The hospital tank will be bare except for a few PVC pipes or perhaps a ceramic flower pot. The display tank is 20 gal. I plan for the hospital tank to fall in between 5 to 10 gal. (Please let me know if this is an inappropriate size.)

The hospital tank will be new (ie, not-cycled). Does this mean frequent water changes while the fish are undergoing treatment to keep ammonia down? (and if so, what portion? 10%-25%?) Or would it be better to have the tank cycle first?

Chris27 suggested having sponge and ceramic media in the HOB (hang-on back, I think?) filter. This is a newbie question, but does this mean having the pieces inside the collection area in the filter? (Next to the disposable pad that gets thrown away?) Can the sponge be like the "buy in your grocery store to wash dishes" type sponge?

Is there any particular kind of filtration system I should stay away from? (ones that would remove the medicine from the water?)

Do I have to do any preparation of the PVC pipes or flower pot before putting it into the tank? (Wash / bleach / holy water / voodoo stick shaking?)

Is it ok to move some of the saltwater from the display tank to the hospital tank? (ie, Is there a concern with some of the parasites being transported along with the water?) Would this actually bring some beneficial bacteria with it?

They don’t seem to be interested in eating. Are there ways to entice them to eat?

I plan on keeping the fish in the hospital tank for about 5 weeks – or whatever is recommended so that the Marine Ich runs its course in the display tank. Is this a good idea? Are there any long-term concerns for the cleaner shrimp, coral, snails & hermit crabs in the display tank when there are no fish in it? Or any concerns when the fish are (hopefully) re-introduced?

Any other suggestions and pointers would be greatly appreciated. A special thanks to Chris27 who had made some great suggestions when this first started.

Thank you once again. All of you have been invaluable in helping me learn and grown in this hobby.

 

[skibum9884]

I'll take a second to answer a few of these:

I would see if you can get them eating in the display tank first. Try a varied diet of different foods. Also try adding Selcon, Garlic, etc which should help improve the feeding response. I'd wait to move them to prevent the stress of moving to a new tank. A move while not eating and without it's normal surroundings of sand and live rock can be especially stressful.

I would say it'd be a good idea to set up a QT tank in the meantime though. This will allow it some time to cycle as well. Using display tank water seems like a good idea to me since you will also transfer some good bacteria over with it. Don't worry too much about bringing Ich or whatever with it, because the meds you use will kill it. There is no necessary prep for PVC pipes that I've ever used besides just rinsing them down to get any dust, etc off.

As for the timeframe, 5 weeks is not enough. You'll need to leave your DT fallow for roughly 6-8 weeks, and I'd be conservative and do 10 just to be safe. That said, there is some controversy as to whether it even works. I myself am skeptical, but think that getting fish eating in QT and acclimated will benefit them in the long run.

 

[skibum9884]

Oh, last thing, it will be very important to monitor water quality during QT (if you end up doing it), especially pH and Ammonia. You'll have to do fairly large percentage water changes quite frequently.

As for meds, I'd use Cupramine (for Ich) and PraziPro (for flukes and worms), however would get them eating in QT first. Not surprisingly, sometimes the meds can affect their appetite.

 

[Chris27]

You're welcome by the way !

The sponge I speak of is from Aquaclear, it's cut specifically for their filters. Most grocery store sponges are very bad for us, as they are treated with a chemical to limit bacteria / odor on them - and from a very bad experience that I'm very ashamed of - I can say they are to be put nowhere near the tank...

As for the filter, if you are using meds, don't use activated carbon or a protein skimmer, other then that you'll be good to go. Sponge and bio-media will provide surface area for the bacteria, and in time be all the filter you need.

Aquaclear, Fluval and some other companies make untreated, porous sponges for use in aquariums, and sometimes a LFS may have some stock blocks of sponge for sale as well. If you have a good LFS around, ask them if they have sponge running in their filters and if you can have some, that way you can bring an established filter home in a bag of water like you would a new fish.

As for your fish - give Brine shrimp a shot - there isn't a fish alive that won't eat it all up. Brine is about worthless in the way of nutrition, so fortify it with some Vitachem and Zoecon/Selcon. Once the fish start eating the Brine, start adding some other frozen food in the mix to ween them back to real food.

Here is a link to a HOB filter that I've found to be the best for QT. The filter tray can be configured with all sorts of stuff like sponge, carbon, bio-max(ceramic media), ammonia removers, etc...and it's relatively cheap given how much everything else costs.

http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=107&PROD_ID=01006100020101

Good Luck - keep asking away - those of us who support QT'ing are always more then happy to answer any and all questions!

 

[DeadDuck]

Thanks again for the tips!

In terms of garlic - did you mean take a clove of garlic, mash it up and mix it in with the food? We also happen to have some pre-chopped garlic from Costco. Could I mash it up into a bit of a pulp and mix it into the food?

Currently the fish live on flakes and occasional frozen brine shrimp. We would thaw the brine shrimp in a cup of aquarium water before putting it into the tank. Before they would go crazy for it - zipping around. Last night they seemed to largely ignore it, which is what made me concerned. (The shrimp, however, had a field day.)

I will try to get some live brine shrimp fortified with Vitachem and Zoecon/Selcon.

skibum mentioned flukes and worms: I did notice that the sides of the tank have recently popped up with a fair number of little round spiral dots. From searching online, it seems that they are little tube worms. Most articles seem to imply that they're harmless, but I thought I'd mention them just in case.

Thanks again!

 

[skibum9884]

Nope, not those types of worms! The worms that PraziPro treats are internal, you wouldn't see them on the aquarium glass.

As for the food, I would recommend Mysis and adding Selcon, or there is a great Fauna Marin garlic oil that I purchased from a LFS (Greenwich Aquaria). You may have to go online for that though. There is also a Fauna Marin forum in the sponsor's section. If you wanted it, I'm sure they could help you get some. Stinky stuff, but it works well.

As for chopping up Garlic, I'm not sure that would work. I've never tried it myself.

If you have any other questions, ask away! We're happy to help.

 

[Jacob D]

This may help supplement what was already said.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124


Prazipro is not selective about which "worms" it kills. Tubeworms will be effected and/or killed. It won't effect nematodes.

 

[DeadDuck]

Thanks for the link! I saw it referenced in another thread and read that after posting. I will take some of that advice to heart, too!

 

[RegalAngel]

The hospital tank will be new (ie, not-cycled). Does this mean frequent water changes while the fish are undergoing treatment to keep ammonia down? (and if so, what portion? 10%-25%?) Or would it be better to have the tank cycle first?

I use Seachem's Stability for my QT when I start it up (I do not keep it running 24/7). And Stabiltiy will provide the bacteria needed to keep the ammonia in check.

 

[gweston]

Similarly I use combo of Stress Coat and Stress Zyme and/or Amquel+ to keep params in check. My small 5gal QT is just fine for a small 6-line wrasse that is in there now. I just do daily 25% water changes, keep salinity good, plenty of flow (Aquaclear 20 hang on and a running airstone provides some more flow and lots of O2. I am running the fish through a course of Rid-Ich+ as a preventative, with a short rest and a few water changes. Then I will do a course of Prazipro. Poor fish was in bad shape when I got him, but he is eating and going about his business like a champ now. After QT, I cross fingers and hope he doesn't decimate my one friendly resident cleaner shrimp.

 

[DeadDuck]

Thanks everyone!

We went out and purchased a simple, 10-gal tank and the 5-20 gallon version of the Aqua Clear Filter. I wanted to buy the 20-50 gallon version (to use in the hospital tank and perhaps if we upgraded to a 50-gal tank in the future we could use it ...) but I was afraid the water flow from that in the 10-gallon tank would be too strong. Would this be true? I had visions of the poor fish in their own little underwater Twister movie. However, if I could use the 20-50 gallon filter in this tank I might trade it in.

LFS did not have Vita-Chem or Selcon, but the owner is going to their supplier tomorrow so I'm going to call later to see if she can buy some while she's there. (No live brine shrimp, either!)

I did mash up some garlic and mixed some of the pulp and water with frozen brine shrimp and flakes. The fish did seem to get really excited and they zipped around. Both ate some, but I noticed a lot of the time they would usually gulp up the (frozen) brine shrimp and then spit it back out again. It was nice to see that they had some energy, though.

Thanks!

 

[Chris27]

FWIW, I use an Aquaclear 110 on my 20L QT and a 70 on my 10Gal QT - they are strong, but not anything like what the little guys see in the big tank...trade up if you like....but as as, the filter you purchased will do a find job for your QT.

 

[gweston]

I have an AC20 on my 5 gal. It is just barely enough in my opinion, but I probably could have gone up a notch. I have an AC50 on my 29gal... initially it was my only filtration on that tank until I put a skimmer on (a requirement in my opinion). Now it just houses carbon and GFO and works quite well for that limited purpose.

 

[DeadDuck]

It's really difficult to find Cupramine Copper around here ... in fact, one fish store owner, who was highly rated on yelp, swore up and down that all I needed were cleaner shrimp. He recommended that I do nothing except ensure that they are well fed and not to stress them by putting them in another tank. (He stated this based on the fact that the fish have only been in the tank for 3 weeks - something I didn't mention on here before.)

It's tough because there are lots of stories from a variety of people who have sworn by their own ways of doing things. Since the conditions for each person are different - doing the right thing for one may be disastrous for another.

Oh well, I called another store and they said they are expecting a shipment in tomorrow.

 

[Chris27]

Granted I'm going to stand by my way of going about treatment, but for everything in this hobby, I've found that science is always the answer - by using copper or hypo you are essentially controlling your environment by using constants and removing the variables.

Simply feeding a fish more, counting on a cleaner shrimp and attempting to limit stress in a display tank are all highly variable, and almost completely out of your control. Copper concentration, temperature and salinity can be adjusted and stabilized resulting in an effective, predictable treatment period.

Just my $0.02 - but I'm a scientist by day, so my opinion is biased

 

[abuzz4me]

I realize this thread is really, really old, but I could use a hand. I have been doing saltwater tanks for 10+ years but am admittedly a beginner. My DT is a 144g and all parameters appear fine, corals are growing well however two of my tangs are exhibiting signs of marine ich. It sounds like I must setup another tank and I plan to do so. My concern is the sizing of the QT / HT. I have a 20 long and was planing to use it, with a number pieces of PVC for hiding. I read some of the information provided here and it appears that all fish (hosts) must be removed from the DT. I have 7 fish in the DT (3 tangs, 2 firefish, 2 chocolate clowns). Will a 20 long be ok for that much livestock? This tank is gonna cycle, so I will try some Stability mentioned in this thread. Any special lighting requirements? ?

Thanks for the help!


Have I said Ich SUCKS!! Been doing this off and on for years and have never had to deal with it. My DT looks better than it ever has and now this.....

 

[Spar]

how large are the Tang's? the advantage you have is that they are already used to each other, but dropping that much space for 10-12 weeks is going to result in problems (IMO). you should consider grabbing one of the 40g breeder tanks that Petco sells. nice surface area (shorter in height) and should house all them just fine. or 2 separate 20g tanks... depending on the tang sizes.

no lights are necessary during the QT period.

What are your plans for treating for the Ich? Copper or CP will likely be your easiest route.