should i do something drastic?
- Thread starter str8clownr
- Start date
str8clownr
New member
yea ill go to the store tomorrow and get my water tested, i have a blue hippo
small mandarin
yellowspot watchman
pistol shrimp
starfish
hermits
i had once wanted like 20 clown gobies, but they all just up and disappeared
small mandarin
yellowspot watchman
pistol shrimp
starfish
hermits
i had once wanted like 20 clown gobies, but they all just up and disappeared
wizzbane15
New member
imo, this would be too drastic. removing the sand would only eliminate the buildup, not the source.
str8clownr
New member
yea id like to keep the sand.... it cost me so damn much ... how do most of you export nitrates?
drummereef
Team RC
Water changes, growing macro, skimming, etc... What test kit are you using to test the nitrates?
If too much nitrate building in your sand bed and your sand bed is close to or less than 3 inches, you can directly remove the cause by gravel siponing it using the gravel cleaner and clean half of the bed in 1 week and then the other half the following week or two. I clean my gravel once every 6 months, my water has been extremely clear and algae free for sometime now because nutrient and phosphate can build up on the sand bed along with nitrate too. However if your sand bed is 4", it can be pretty efficient at removing nitrate onces the bed is established.
pledosophy
Active member
Nitrates of 160 are extremely high.
If it were me I would
Do a 50% WC. Sounds drastic but IME corals and fish do not suffer from sudden improved water quaility just make sure you match the temp and pH. When doing the WC suck out as much detritus from the rocks, even move a powerhead with a smaller gauge hose to blow the detritus out of the places where it can collect in the rocks.
YOu have a refugium but what is in it? Are you keeping macro algaes? I would add some of the faster growers to export more nitrates from the system. Green grape caulphera is good IME as well as mangroes. What is your light cycle like. If it is running 24/7 in the refugium the macro's present are not receiving a rest period so they have no time to fully grow.
I would also syphon your sandbed in the tank to 2" or below. Keep the sand. With all the water from the WC you will be able to rinse it well and add it into your sump. A 3" sandbed does not have the ability to process the nitrates as it lacks the space for the anaerobic bacteria regions to grow. The nitrates build up and release into your system. Removing some of it, washing it, and then placing the clean sand into your DSB refugium would be a good choice. Eliminating a cause in your display while concurrently making the DSB in the refugium more effective.
I would suggest using a pH buffer. If your running a refugium your pH should not be dipping lower as the light from the fuge should stabalize it. I like the Seachem buffer that goes to 8.3 IME. It is pretty right on. just add it slow and make sure to disolve it in fresh water first. I keep up my pH buffering by adding what is needed for a week in my RODI top off water jug so the pH buffer gets placed in slowly over time.
I would also give your filters a very good cleaning in the removed tank water. Cleaning them in the tank water will help them to retain the arobic bacteria that is growing on them.
How is your surface aggitation? Do you see ripples on the surface of the water generated by your return or by a powerhead. Surface aggiation is important IME to allow proper oxygenation of the water. It will help.
The new skimmer will also help out. I'd run them both together. You have a major problem here, it eeds to be addressed severly.
After doing all of this I would wait a week. If nitrates are above 40 I'd do aother 50% WC. If less then that I would do a 25% or greater if you like. I did 30g changes on my 65g with a 20g refugium for years with no worries, no problems ever came up. (I was getting research grade salt water for free at the time, was a two minute trip for me frm my business.
Since you already have a sump I would also suggest a nitrate reactor. Yu can buy them or if you are a little handy make your own.
I made my nitrate reactor out of an Aquafina bottle. I drilled a small hole in the cap and then put a piece of airline tubing through the hole unitl it wrapped around the bottom of the bottle. Then I siliconed it into place, superglue works just as well. I punched a couple of holes in the top of the bottle. filled the bottle with Seachem's nitrate media, and then screwed the bottle shut. I connected the airline tube to a rio 90 by pushing the end of the airline that was not in the bottle as far into the rio as it would go. Heating the plastic with a lighter and clamping it down on the airline hose. Cheap and easy yt very effective. Whole thing cost me under $20 since I had the rio as it was.
HTH.
Keeping seahorses in the same size display as you I've had my nitrate problems as well, just part of the hobby. IME if you don't solve them soon, and boost your pH to at least 8.2 then your in for some serious nuissance algae outbreaks that will not be at all fun.
Good Luck.
If it were me I would
Do a 50% WC. Sounds drastic but IME corals and fish do not suffer from sudden improved water quaility just make sure you match the temp and pH. When doing the WC suck out as much detritus from the rocks, even move a powerhead with a smaller gauge hose to blow the detritus out of the places where it can collect in the rocks.
YOu have a refugium but what is in it? Are you keeping macro algaes? I would add some of the faster growers to export more nitrates from the system. Green grape caulphera is good IME as well as mangroes. What is your light cycle like. If it is running 24/7 in the refugium the macro's present are not receiving a rest period so they have no time to fully grow.
I would also syphon your sandbed in the tank to 2" or below. Keep the sand. With all the water from the WC you will be able to rinse it well and add it into your sump. A 3" sandbed does not have the ability to process the nitrates as it lacks the space for the anaerobic bacteria regions to grow. The nitrates build up and release into your system. Removing some of it, washing it, and then placing the clean sand into your DSB refugium would be a good choice. Eliminating a cause in your display while concurrently making the DSB in the refugium more effective.
I would suggest using a pH buffer. If your running a refugium your pH should not be dipping lower as the light from the fuge should stabalize it. I like the Seachem buffer that goes to 8.3 IME. It is pretty right on. just add it slow and make sure to disolve it in fresh water first. I keep up my pH buffering by adding what is needed for a week in my RODI top off water jug so the pH buffer gets placed in slowly over time.
I would also give your filters a very good cleaning in the removed tank water. Cleaning them in the tank water will help them to retain the arobic bacteria that is growing on them.
How is your surface aggitation? Do you see ripples on the surface of the water generated by your return or by a powerhead. Surface aggiation is important IME to allow proper oxygenation of the water. It will help.
The new skimmer will also help out. I'd run them both together. You have a major problem here, it eeds to be addressed severly.
After doing all of this I would wait a week. If nitrates are above 40 I'd do aother 50% WC. If less then that I would do a 25% or greater if you like. I did 30g changes on my 65g with a 20g refugium for years with no worries, no problems ever came up. (I was getting research grade salt water for free at the time, was a two minute trip for me frm my business.
Since you already have a sump I would also suggest a nitrate reactor. Yu can buy them or if you are a little handy make your own.
I made my nitrate reactor out of an Aquafina bottle. I drilled a small hole in the cap and then put a piece of airline tubing through the hole unitl it wrapped around the bottom of the bottle. Then I siliconed it into place, superglue works just as well. I punched a couple of holes in the top of the bottle. filled the bottle with Seachem's nitrate media, and then screwed the bottle shut. I connected the airline tube to a rio 90 by pushing the end of the airline that was not in the bottle as far into the rio as it would go. Heating the plastic with a lighter and clamping it down on the airline hose. Cheap and easy yt very effective. Whole thing cost me under $20 since I had the rio as it was.
HTH.
Keeping seahorses in the same size display as you I've had my nitrate problems as well, just part of the hobby. IME if you don't solve them soon, and boost your pH to at least 8.2 then your in for some serious nuissance algae outbreaks that will not be at all fun.
Good Luck.
str8clownr
New member
i only have a 4.5 in DSB that is like 6 inches long in the sump....there is no algaes in there bc i have no lightsource for down there at the moment. so its been put off, i figured the DSB would be a beneficial and take a strong active role immediately.
oh well.....i always get the turkey baster and blast my rocks and corals, but you really have no idea how often and how much gunk settles on these things, i mean like everyday!!! i dont have enough fish for that!!!
i will get some macro soon, whats better caulerpa or chaeto? what sthe difference?
although i like the idea of making the refugium's sand bed more effective by taking sand from display, i like the size of the display sand now and unless you think it will have a great effect i rather leave it. I still have LS bag of caribsea that i have yet to add, i could put that in the fuge right?
i will also look into the pH buffer...expensive?
i just cleaned the filter but did it under the tap... next time ill do it in tank water,...good idea never thought of it
surface aggitation is really good, LOTS of ripples.
yea, im hoping the skimmer is THE answer to this problem... the skimmer in their now is TINY like, i really dont think it has any effect, but positive thinking tells me to keep it plugged in.
yea, i think ill look up now how to make a nitrate reactor... is this similar to a "plenum"
i just found out that plenums exist and export nitrates, so im trying to find out a lil bit about them now.
thanks so much for the help...all of you guys
i really didnt expect feedback like this, THANKS
oh well.....i always get the turkey baster and blast my rocks and corals, but you really have no idea how often and how much gunk settles on these things, i mean like everyday!!! i dont have enough fish for that!!!
i will get some macro soon, whats better caulerpa or chaeto? what sthe difference?
although i like the idea of making the refugium's sand bed more effective by taking sand from display, i like the size of the display sand now and unless you think it will have a great effect i rather leave it. I still have LS bag of caribsea that i have yet to add, i could put that in the fuge right?
i will also look into the pH buffer...expensive?
i just cleaned the filter but did it under the tap... next time ill do it in tank water,...good idea never thought of it
surface aggitation is really good, LOTS of ripples.
yea, im hoping the skimmer is THE answer to this problem... the skimmer in their now is TINY like, i really dont think it has any effect, but positive thinking tells me to keep it plugged in.
yea, i think ill look up now how to make a nitrate reactor... is this similar to a "plenum"
i just found out that plenums exist and export nitrates, so im trying to find out a lil bit about them now.
thanks so much for the help...all of you guys
i really didnt expect feedback like this, THANKS
davidryder
Claris or Elliot?
Macro will do wonders for nitrate export...
the seachem buffer's called reef builder, it's excellent stuff. not terribly expensive, since you don't use much of it at a time (i think it's 1/2 tsp per 50 gallons of system volume at the max). i alternate dosing that with b-ionic on a 24-36 hour rotation, and keep params pretty stable when i'm on top of it. i'm about to set up calcium reactor to automate the whole mess.
i have both chaeto and grape caluerpa in my sump, and a DSB. the sand in the sump has compacted a lot over the last year, and there are no bubbles so i know it's not doing any denitrification; it's about to go away in favor of a bare bottomoed chaet-o-whirl. but the display has DSB; you could set on up in a bucket seperately, there is an ongoing discussion in i think the advanced topics forum on this technique.
a plenum is simply a dead space under a DSB, and not proven to be significantly different than a DSB. bob goeman has a nice mini-book you may want to read, live sand secrets. i keep it in my bathroom by the throne.
i have both chaeto and grape caluerpa in my sump, and a DSB. the sand in the sump has compacted a lot over the last year, and there are no bubbles so i know it's not doing any denitrification; it's about to go away in favor of a bare bottomoed chaet-o-whirl. but the display has DSB; you could set on up in a bucket seperately, there is an ongoing discussion in i think the advanced topics forum on this technique.
a plenum is simply a dead space under a DSB, and not proven to be significantly different than a DSB. bob goeman has a nice mini-book you may want to read, live sand secrets. i keep it in my bathroom by the throne.
pledosophy
Active member
If there is no light or macro in the sump I would not call it a refugium, perhaps a cryptic style sump without the beneficial organisms, unless they were seeded or have had a long time to establish.
Chaetomorpha is far different then the caulphera's. Chaeto is very stable, needs very little light. It grows mat like, can trap detritus as well as being a safe haven for pods.
There are many species of caulphera. Many are fast growers. they are more volatile then chaeto, but IME do not grow as fast or export as many nutrients.
If the "refugium" is not lit it will not help stabalize pH. Light source for a 20g refugium is cheap. Just get a clip on lamp from HD and a CF bulb. One of the spiraly ones, will cost you less then $20.
As for pH buffer, I think I paid $13 for my bottle.
It is important to either add sand to your display or remove it. 3" will be a continous source of problems. Unless you have a biological means of filtering and stirrig the sandbed, I suggest removing some, JMO. Having a 3" sandbed is not going to work for you, I'm sorry.
Nitrate reactors and plenums are completely different things. To install a plenum at this point you would have to complete tear apart your system. take eveything out, and then install the plenum. While plenum's work great for some people, I don't like the idea of having to tear down my tank every few years to fix it. IMO, IME it is quite possible to setup a long term stable tank using other methods. JMO. I have read Goeman's book, there is also a new article in one of the fish Mag's about Plenum's, which one escapes me, I think it was Marine Fish and Reefs. Had a comparison from the Wakiki aquarium.
A nitrate reactor would be far easier for you to install. The directions on a DIY verision are listed above. They also sell them in a plug and play variety, which after buying one, is what inspired me to return it and make my own.
Hate to break it you ya bud, but with nitrates at 160, a skimmer is not the only anwser.
Your refernce to stuff building up on your rocks and corals brings up another question in my mind. What is the flow like in your system? Are you keeping anything that is flow sensetive. In my reef tanks there is no way anything in the water column could settle on to anything, there is a bunch of flow. In my seahorse tanks which are lower fow the flow is designed to come through the rock work to also minimie the bility for anything to settle on the rocks or corals. JME
Chaetomorpha is far different then the caulphera's. Chaeto is very stable, needs very little light. It grows mat like, can trap detritus as well as being a safe haven for pods.
There are many species of caulphera. Many are fast growers. they are more volatile then chaeto, but IME do not grow as fast or export as many nutrients.
If the "refugium" is not lit it will not help stabalize pH. Light source for a 20g refugium is cheap. Just get a clip on lamp from HD and a CF bulb. One of the spiraly ones, will cost you less then $20.
As for pH buffer, I think I paid $13 for my bottle.
It is important to either add sand to your display or remove it. 3" will be a continous source of problems. Unless you have a biological means of filtering and stirrig the sandbed, I suggest removing some, JMO. Having a 3" sandbed is not going to work for you, I'm sorry.
Nitrate reactors and plenums are completely different things. To install a plenum at this point you would have to complete tear apart your system. take eveything out, and then install the plenum. While plenum's work great for some people, I don't like the idea of having to tear down my tank every few years to fix it. IMO, IME it is quite possible to setup a long term stable tank using other methods. JMO. I have read Goeman's book, there is also a new article in one of the fish Mag's about Plenum's, which one escapes me, I think it was Marine Fish and Reefs. Had a comparison from the Wakiki aquarium.
A nitrate reactor would be far easier for you to install. The directions on a DIY verision are listed above. They also sell them in a plug and play variety, which after buying one, is what inspired me to return it and make my own.
Hate to break it you ya bud, but with nitrates at 160, a skimmer is not the only anwser.
Your refernce to stuff building up on your rocks and corals brings up another question in my mind. What is the flow like in your system? Are you keeping anything that is flow sensetive. In my reef tanks there is no way anything in the water column could settle on to anything, there is a bunch of flow. In my seahorse tanks which are lower fow the flow is designed to come through the rock work to also minimie the bility for anything to settle on the rocks or corals. JME
drummereef
Team RC
You want to use chaeto in the fuge. It will not go sexual like caulerpa will. Again, do NOT use pH buffers to deal with pH. Open some windows and get some fresh oxygen in your house. There is most likely a buildup of CO2 causing your pH to drop. pH buffers are not a good long term solution for pH or alkalinity issues. You should get started on a balanced additive for keeping your alkalinity and calcium levels up. I use Randy's diy 2-part which works great for this and costs me less than $20 per year to make and use. Please read the following in regards to your issues.
Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
PLEASE READ.
pledosophy
Active member
Drummer? Got mad respect for you so gotta ask. Please take it like that.
Why do you feel pH buffer is bad long term? Without it my systems usually hover around 8, but I like it a bit higher as IME I have found lower pH levels to coincide with nuissance alages, even if phosphates and nitrates are kept at reasonable lows. I do concur that many pH problems are related to CO2. In the types of fish I keep and specialize in C02 is dangerous in other aspects as well. i am very familiar with it's effects on our closed systems.
Also IME keeping and growing various species of caulphera's for sale to LFS's as well as shipping out to close to a hundred hobbyists, I have never personally had it go sexual except for the time I experimented to see if I could get it to go sexual. Have you had problems with caulphera's personally. IME green grape is the most volatile of the species I have worked with while red grape is the most hardy. Other species like prolifera are very hardy and still fast growing. prolifera was on of the two original species Mr Sy worked with.
IME two part is better, I had good luck with Kalk dripping as well, but found for me that a simple Ca addative works O.K. for my needs. I do keep clams and LPS, but since I no loger keep SPS (just not my thing, sold off my frags, might get another Oregon tort soon, it was pretty wife misses it)I have found personally that the single addative while more expenisve then the two part is just easier for me personally.
Just looking for your opinion. My experiences differ, would just like to know more about yours.
:cheers:
i'll read the articles again for sure.
Why do you feel pH buffer is bad long term? Without it my systems usually hover around 8, but I like it a bit higher as IME I have found lower pH levels to coincide with nuissance alages, even if phosphates and nitrates are kept at reasonable lows. I do concur that many pH problems are related to CO2. In the types of fish I keep and specialize in C02 is dangerous in other aspects as well. i am very familiar with it's effects on our closed systems.
Also IME keeping and growing various species of caulphera's for sale to LFS's as well as shipping out to close to a hundred hobbyists, I have never personally had it go sexual except for the time I experimented to see if I could get it to go sexual. Have you had problems with caulphera's personally. IME green grape is the most volatile of the species I have worked with while red grape is the most hardy. Other species like prolifera are very hardy and still fast growing. prolifera was on of the two original species Mr Sy worked with.
IME two part is better, I had good luck with Kalk dripping as well, but found for me that a simple Ca addative works O.K. for my needs. I do keep clams and LPS, but since I no loger keep SPS (just not my thing, sold off my frags, might get another Oregon tort soon, it was pretty wife misses it)I have found personally that the single addative while more expenisve then the two part is just easier for me personally.
Just looking for your opinion. My experiences differ, would just like to know more about yours.
:cheers:
i'll read the articles again for sure.
