Sick clowns?

[kelp47]

Here is the backstory. I've had two clownfish (ocellaris) in a 10 gallon QT for just over four weeks now. They have been very healthy the entire time except for some white feces that I've been attempting (unsuccessfully) to treat as internal parasites. I treated for a week and a half by mixing Metro with their food. When that didn't work, I tried API General Cure, which is part Metro and part Prazi. The first round didn't seem to work, and I had only dosed a partial pack since my 10 gallon tank isn't full. So after doing the recommended 25% water change and adding carbon back in for a day, I started a second round the following day. This time I added the entire pack to the tank.

The day after the first dose (of the second round), the fish appeared to be darting around a bit and scratching, mainly the smaller one. I thought maybe it was the medicine, so I added the carbon filter back. By evening, they seemed back to normal, so I took the carbon filter back out and put in the second dose of API General Cure. The next morning (this morning), they were doing the same thing, but it was affecting both of them, and it seemed worse. I also noticed what looked like a light dusting on them, but it was hard to see except under an LED flashlight or good natural light. So I did a 25% water change this morning and put the carbon filter back in. (And by the way, they still pooped white"¦)

Aside from these symptoms, they are still pretty active, and their breathing doesn't appear labored. They are also eating fine. I've only been feeding SA pellets since I know they'll eat that well. They haven't eaten mysis shrimp very well. But I did get some liquid vitamins in the mail this morning, which I plan to soak their food in tonight.

The water quality is very good. The ammonia badge consistently says that I'm clear. PH is at 8.0"”what I normally run. SG is around 1.025, maybe a little higher since I was getting them ready for the display. I clean waste and uneaten food within an hour after feeding twice a day. The tank is bare except for two PVC pieces and a clay flowerpot. I have an HOB filter for filtration and an airstone. There is a very small handful of rock rubble, seeded from my display, in the HOB filter. This has helped keep ammonia in check without frequent water changes.

So, is it possible that all of this is caused by the medicine, or does it sound like an external parasite is surfacing? I have no idea where it would come from as my QT tank was bleached and dried before I set it up for the clowns. I have put some water in there from my display, but I have never had a sick fish in my display (currently only two fish anyway).

I am at work now, but will check in on them when I get home. If they are not any better, I'm considering doing a dip in Paraguard, as I have it on hand, and it treats a variety of external parasites. But I don't want to medicate them any more if I'm not sure. "¦ any ideas?

 

[kelp47]

Update: When I came home from work, I tried feeding them frozen mysis soaked in Selcon, and they pigged out! They ate it pretty quickly, so I tossed in some SA pellets as well just to be sure they are well fed in case I need to start some type of treatment. So here is a summary of their current situation:

-Fish still darting around. I'm not sure if they're scratching, but they dart around and shake every now and then.

-Both look like they have a light dusting of something on them. I was hoping I could say it was the API General Cure powder, but I think that would just be wishful thinking.

-Fish still have white poop, but this has been ongoing for at least a few weeks now. I don't know if it is related or not.

-Despite these things, the fish are still active and eating well. It doesn't look like they are breathing rapidly or labored.

I tried to get a photo of the "dust" on them, but it doesn't show up. I feel like I need to treat them, but I don't want to treat for the wrong thing. Any ideas? Would a Paraguard dip be appropriate?

 

[kelp47]

Okay, I been doing a LOT of reading, and I've about decided that this must be ich. Considering that I've had them in QT for 4 weeks, and considering the life cycle of ich compared to other parasites, isn't this the only one that could just now show up? I mean, maybe in previous "on fish" stages there were only a few, so they've just now reproduced to a level that are noticeable to me. Doe that make sense? Are there other parasites that could show up this late?

In this case, I think I'll try TTM since it's a proven method, and I've given them so many meds already.

 

[ThRoewer]

I'm not sure if stringy white poo is really a sign of intestinal infection for clownfish. The male of my first percula pair had it yesterday and the female of pair 2 also has it on and off.
I have pair 1 now for 6 months and aside from the occasional scratching of their lips they are spotless.
The female of pair 2 was battling some intestinal infection but improved a lot after API General Cure. I may give them another round at a later time, just to be sure.

As for diagnosing Ich - you should see the typical white spots on fins and body, at a minimum a few. If not it may be something else. TTM only works against Ich and the added stress may make things worse if it isn't Ich.

The other option would be velvet, but it usually moves quicker. But the "dusting" would fit this one.

Trichodina is one of the rarer things but the dusting could fit it too.

Flukes could be another cause of the darting.

Fish with the above usually show at least some elevated breathing and scratching. If both are not shown I would also consider a mild bacterial skin and gill infection. Those are quite common when the water quality isn't too great. It's more of an inflammation caused by high bacteria density than an actual progressing infection.

Finally it could also still be an intestinal infection (or just an inflammation).

If the fish are still in a QT my treatment of choice in a case like this would be CP (Ick-Shield Powder) as it treats most of the suspects and also has some anti inflammatory properties.
At the same time you could also treat with PraziPro for possible flukes in the gills or intestines.

 

[kelp47]

This is so confusing... so many of the symptoms all sound the same!

I definitely don't want to put them through undue stress. And I don't believe I have seen any white specks on their fins--just their bodies.... So maybe it's not ick?

I ruled out brook because I figured they would have take a downhill turn already by now, but they have been pretty much the same Tuesday/Wednesday, and they still are active and eat well. Also, I figured that should have shown up earlier, not 4 weeks into QT with no contact with other fish or bad water.

I thought about flukes, but they were just coming off API General Cure when they started these symptoms, so I thought it was unlikely that this was the issue when the treatment should covered/prevented it.

I've read about the Ick Shield, but felt bad for dumping more harsh chemicals in the tank when I've just treated them for 3 weeks with metro and prazi...

So are you saying that an infection or inflammation could appear as a dusting?

I appreciate your analysis. Any more thoughts after my feedback?

 

[ThRoewer]

I would also put brook at the bottom of the pile.
Velvet would have likely progressed further by now, so it is also not on the top of the list.

How serious are the symptoms?
Does it look like the fish just feel itchy at times or all the times?
Are you sure about the dusting or is it just a trick of the light on their scales?
If it is really dusty, is it more like a milky, whitish powdering/layer or like a golden brown to rusty looking dust layer?

 

[kelp47]

I'm going to give them a good look when I get home shortly so I can answer these questions while looking at them. Thanks for following up!

 

[kelp47]

They finally let me hold an LED flashlight overhead without hiding (I think because they're hungry). They are definitely more defined specks that I thought, and they are on the fins as well. The LED light overhead helps distinguish them a lot more. I don't see any kind of color tint to the specks. More salt-like, not milky.

The symptoms don't seem overly-serious at this point, and they don't seem to have progressed any over the last couple of days. They dart pretty consistently, but not necessarily constantly.

I was doubting my diagnosis, but now I'm thinking it really sounds like ick. But of course I'm open for idea for more experienced aquarists than myself, as I haven't been exposed to very much at this point.

 

[ThRoewer]

salt like specs means ich. Do TTM.

 

[kelp47]

Thanks for the confirmation. They're in a 10 gal, and I picked up a 5.5 last night. I figured that would be fine for three day stretches.

 

[kelp47]

I did the first transfer tonight. My second tank is a 5.5 gal, with nothing but an airstone, heater, thermometer, and a couple pvc elbows. All of these things are new. The only thing I had to bend the rule on tonight was the cover. I'll get another tomorrow to keep for that tank only.

I checked to be sure the salinity, temp and PH matched in both tanks, then I used the inside part of an acclimation box to transfer them. It went pretty well and they don't seem too stressed. The only thing that bothered me was that I tilted the acclimation box at one point and the clown slid across the bottom and hit the side... of course it wasn't hard, and she doesn't act like she's injured, but it's something to be careful about. I also worry a little that one of their side fins might catch in one of the holes on the acclimation box. But I guess they pretty much keep them clamped to their sides when they're being lifted from the water.

So I put in a dose of stress coat for good measure and turned the light out for the night. I might peak back in later and see if I can read the temp just to be sure it's staying steady (since it's a new heater), but only if I can manage without turning on the light. I also picked up a bottle of Prime that I might dose tomorrow as a precaution. Is that a good thing to do, or should I only do that if I detect ammonia?

 

[ThRoewer]

Best is to scoop them up with a glass or just a wet hand.

 

[kelp47]

Next morning... now they are breathing quickly, swimming lethargically, and won't eat! Is this progression of ick or the tank transfer? Is there something I should do? Will they get relief when the parasites go into the next phase?

I would think an airstone in a 5.5 gal aquarium would be enough, but is it? I read that that's all a lot of others used in TTM.

 

[ThRoewer]

That doesn't sound right. Take some clear pictures of them.

 

[kelp47]

Here are a few. I know the last one is not very good; I only included it because you can kind of see the gills flaring... I hope these help!

 

[ThRoewer]

Yeah, that's ich, and at a quite well advanced stage.

At this level of infection it is normal that they are breathing fast and loose their appetite. I wouldn't even try feeding them until the parasites have dropped off and they are in the next tank. All you can do for them now is to increase oxygenation.

For that I would lower the salinity to 1.018 kg/l or even 1.016 kg/l. That will give them some stress relieve and increase the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water.
Just remove a gallon of saltwater and drip in the same amount of RO water over an hour or two. Repeat this until you get the salinity you want.

You may also want to get prepared to fight eventual secondary bacterial infections if needed.
Though for now Stress Guard may be enough.

 

[kelp47]

Got it. Thanks a lot!
I'm hopeful that the parasites will drop off soon. I first noticed the dusting (which at the time, without good lighting, I didn't realize was ick) on Tuesday or Wednesday. So we're at 3-4 days of the on-fish stage now. So it should happen between now and 4 days from now at the latest... hopefully before I transfer them again on Monday evening.

 

[ThRoewer]

These are almost ripe. At the most it should take two days for them to drop off. The goal of TTM is to prevent reinfection so the fish should not get new spots after their current parasites have dropped off.

 

[kelp47]

Next day: Parasites are still attached I'm hoping it's coming soon.

However, they do seem a little more active than they were yesterday morning. They're still breathing quickly, but I take the slight increase in activity to mean that their breathing must not be as labored even if it's fast.

I've seen both at different times do a strange thing where they stay in one place and just flutter all of their fins. I guess they're just itching badly at the moment.

The SG is currently at 1.020. I was afraid I might have been dropping it too quickly to keep going to 1.018, and I also had to leave for the evening at that point. I'll probably try to drop it a little lower tonight.

 

[ThRoewer]

It may take 2 to 3 days for the parasites to drop off, but they shouldn't get new ones after that.

Also don't be too concerned if they continue to scratch for a while. The healing tissue may still be itching.

Salinity drops can be done fairly rapid if you don't go below the fish's blood salinity. I dripped a fridmani in from 1.026 to 1.010 over half an hour without any ill effects.

The other way around should be taken a bit slower, especially when you come from very low salinities like with hyposalinity. Though a raise from 1.018 to 1.026 can be done quickly with just a drip over an hour.