Sick Pink Face Wrasse

[gdm42001]

Greetings,
My Pink Faced Wrasse has been ill for the last two weeks.
It started with her not eating, having trouble swimming, etc.
She swims under something to keep from floating. I have had this fish for several years, never any health issues to date.

She has been treated with

1. MelaFix for 1 week (No Help, but did cause some stress, shaking her head, coughing, or what appeared to be coughing, and darting around)
2. Formalin 3 dip, which seemed to be no help
3. Currently Maracyn Plus Antibacteria (Just added the second application)
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   I have her in a 20 gallon Hospital tank
   In the circles below, there is damage to the gill area and a black spot on the dorsal fin, I could not coax her to open it. the black spot is about 1/2 the size of a pencil eraser diameter when her dorsal fine is extended.
   
   
   
   
   
   The following may have been a result of jamming herself under the rocks, so I moved her to a hospital tank to avoid further injuries.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Any help would be appriciated.

 

[leebca]

What, if any, changes have you made during the past couple of months?
- added anything new?
- added anything living?
- added any new equipment or process?
- changed equipment, lighting, etc.?
- removed anything, any equipment, etc.?
- any deaths during the last two months?

Generally, a fish held captive for many years shows signs of decline from a nutritional deficiency. This can be from something as benign as continued activated carbon use to the foods not providing the trace components the fish needs for long life.

If you've made no changes to your system during the past few months, then the likelihood it is a nutritional issue increases quite a bit.

 

[gdm42001]

leebca;
I feed both my tanks frozen foods, from the LFS, "San Francisco Bay Brands"
I use Squid, Mysis Shrimp, Marine Cuisine, Musscle, etc.
This fish is in a tank with a Niger Trigger which I have had for the last 14 years. They both eat the same stuff.

 

[leebca]

I am not familiar with your specific wrasse Guy. However most wrasses are carnivores. So a meaty diet that contains the whole food organism would be good. But what vitamins and fats have you been adding?

Your list of foods includes whole foods (e.g., mysis, and mussels (if they are whole)) but not enough of them. Mostly you're providing flesh. In the wild these fish usually eat the organs of their victims, providing a wide range of vitamins and nutrients not found in flesh. Including vitamins in our fish feedings is just necessary, IMHO.

The mysis you feed are probably freshwater mysis. . .maybe relicta? Although nutritious, they are not from the world of marine and do lack some nutrients needed by carnivores for long term health.

Although frozen Marine Cuisine is a nice mix, you'll note it actually contains mostly brine shrimp (not nutritious enough) and mysis (the same freshwater one noted above) and krill. That krill is the best ingredient. However, the most appalling thing about the frozen MC is its low protein percentage. (It's mostly gelled water with a moisture content of 90%). Some of that protein is wheat, which I would avoid feeding carnivores. It does get in some vitamins though, and that is a start in the right direction, but its vitamin content is nowhere complete.

You're relying on a single manufacturer, SF Brand. It would be better to mix the sources.

You didn't mention if you use activated carbon or not. Do you? How often do you change it? How often do you use it? What additives do you put in the tank water? How often? Contiual use of some compounds like carbon remove trace elements in the water. These trace elements are needed by some fish to remain healthy.

You've performed the treatments that would address most common ailments for fish, and the review of their diet suggests a nutritional need left unsatisfied. One fish seemingly okay is not a sign of good nutrition, nor is one fish ill a sign of bad nutrition. Somewhere in between is the cause of the eventual decline in fish health.

These are just my opinions and others may have different perspectives. Good luck! :rollface:

 

[gdm42001]

Leebca,
Thanks for the response.
SF brand's website says the mysis are A small saltwater shrimp excellent for finicky eaters. One of the few frozen foods that seahorses will eat with no problems. The Mysis shrimp naturally attract fish. High HUFA levels maintains a great protein analysis.

Crude Protein Min 3.70%
Crude Fat Min 0.44%
Crude Fiber Max 0.30%
Moisture Max 92.00%
Dry Protein 46.25

I was surprised to see Marine Cuisine contained wheat flour

Artemia Franciscana, krill, mysis, menhaden oil, astaxanthin, sodium alginate, spirulina, Vitamin premix: wheat flour, Vitamin A acetate, cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfate complex, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, inositol, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, betaine, d-alpha mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E)

Crude Protein Min 6.40%
Crude Fat Min 1.50%
Crude Fiber Max 0.50%
Moisture Max 90.00%
Dry Protein % 64.00%

The Squid contains just that, Squid

Crude Protein Min 16.30%
Crude Fat Min 0.44%
Crude Fiber Max 0.30%
Moisture Max 92.00%
Dry Protein 82.32%

The Plankton contains (I forgot to mention this one, I am out right now)

Crude Protein Min 16.50%
Crude Fat Min 2.14%
Crude Fiber Max 0.15%
Moisture Max 86.00%
Dry Protein 75.00%

Now you have me wiggin out on fish food......

:eek1:

 

[gdm42001]

I just found Ocean Nutrition Trigger Formula
Combined exclusive Sea Urchin product with other meaty raw seafoods plus marine algae to create the perfect formula for your Triggers and Wrasses. This diet combines intense flavor with complete nutrition that will promote the health, vitality and coloration of your fishes for a long and healthy life.

INGREDIENTS: Meaty parts of sea urchin, tuna, marine Algae, salmon eggs, krill (E. superba), plankton (E. pacific), squid, clams, silversides, krill hydrolysate, spinach, kelp, fish oil, casein, lecithin, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin (for color enhancement). Vitamins: potassium ascorbate, beta-carotene, biotin, riboflavin, niacin, hydroxocobalamin (source of vitamin B12), thiamine HCL. Amino acids: methionine (dl-methionine), L-Lysine, taurine. Trace elements: calcium chloride, potassium iodide, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, magnesium carbonate, and zinc sulfate.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein (min) 14.2%, Crude Fat (min) 3.1%, Crude Fiber (max) 3.8%, Moisture (max) 76.8% (Protein as a percentage of dry matter - 61%)

BEST USED FOR: Triggerfish and Wrasses


I will pick some up tomorrow, what vitamins do you use?

 

[TerryB]

I agree with Lee that the problem is probably due to a dietary deficiency as the root of the problem. I am assuming that the water quality is good and that you make frequent, large water changes. Sometimes the problem with foods can be caused by imporperly storing the foods or using old foods. All foods including flake should be stored in the freezer and bought only in portions that you can use in a couple of months. Improperly stored foods will lose nutritional value and become tainted with a large population of bacteria.

What would I do now that the fish is in serious condition? If the fish is still eating then I would add vitamins, selcon and Beta glucan to the food. Beta glucan will enhance immune function. The problem could be viral. The growth on the side of the fish could be viral in nature, but fish do get tumors. The tumors are generally not on the skin. Neoplasms that are caused by viral infections do often occur in areas such as the skin, gills and eyes that are exposed to the water. The Beta glucan may help, but for the sake of the fish it may be better if the problem is a bacterial infection or toxin in the water. I would not give the fish any sort of dip at this point. I would use a good antibiotic. If you are using Maracyn it probably won't help. Maracyn-Two is much more effective as a fish antibiotic. You could even combine it with some Focus by Seachem. Focus is a polymer that contains nitrofurazone. You can add Maracyn-Two powder to it and put it on food. I like to reduce the salinity whenever I see a wound to reduce osmotic pressure. A little StressGuard by Seachem or Pro Tech Coat Marine by Kent Marine can serve as a type of bandaid for the wounds if you put some in the water.

Terry B

 

[gdm42001]

I am currently treating with Maracyn Plus

20ml (10 ml per 10 gallons) on day one, day 3 and day 5 per the instructions.

Food never gets too old, I only buy what I can use within 30 days

I have been adding Marine C from Kent

How far should I reduce the SG?

 

[TerryB]

I doubt Maracyn Plus will help much. There are only a few antibiotics that are effective for saltwater. If it were my fish, I would take the salinity (not SG) to 12 -14ppt. Any reduction in the salinity will help, but 12ppt is close to the salinity of the internal fluids of the fish. You must check the pH daily with hyposalinity. Personally, I use Zoe vitamins and Selcon for fatty acids, but there are other good products. I would definately get some Beta glucan from a health food store to add to the food for a week or two.

Terry B

 

[gdm42001]

12 to 14 looks like 1.010 or 1.009 on my Refractometer
does that sound close?

 

[TerryB]

Yes that sounds about right for salinity. Keep a close eye on the pH. I think your wrasse's immune system is about shot at this point. You are going to have to act fact to have a chance to save it. Do look into getting some Beta glucan to add to the food.

Terry B

 

[leebca]

You're welcome Guy.

It's amazing what we are buying for our fish, thinking we're providing the right things. When you think about it, we pay a lot of $ for water, when you figure the price per pound.

Don't rely on any one food. Lean towards the complete foods. Look for frozen plankton, frozen krill, etc. to include in their diet.

I'm glad Terry is helping on how to help your fish in its current state.

Good luck!

 

[gdm42001]

I began lowering the salinity last night, replaced two gallons of tank water with RO/DI water.
Tonight I did another 3 gallons, added over several hours so we are down to 1.0185

I also picked up some new foods, Ocean Nutrition

Trigger Formula for Triggers and Wrasses
Ingredients:
Meaty parts of sea urchin, tuna, marine Algae, salmon eggs, krill (E. superba), plankton (E. pacific), squid, clams, silversides, krill hydrolysate, spinach, kelp, fish oil, casein, lecithin, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin (for color enhancement). Vitamins: potassium ascorbate, beta-carotene, biotin, riboflavin, niacin, hydroxocobalamin (source of vitamin B12), thiamine HCL. Amino acids: methionine (dl-methionine), L-Lysine, taurine. Trace elements: calcium chloride, potassium iodide, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, magnesium carbonate, and zinc sulfate.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 14.2%
Crude Fat (min) 3.1%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.8%
Moisture (max) 76.8%
(Protein as a percentage of dry matter 61%)

Prime Reef
Ingredients:
Marine shrimp, marine clams, squid, zoo-plankton's (E. pacific and E. superba), spinach, seaweed, fish oil, mussel, lobster, fish roe, scallop, vitamins (choline chloride, ascorbic acid including stabilized vitamin C, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, menadione sodium bisulfate complex, vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, beta-carotene supplement, biotin), amino acids (dl-methionine, taurine, lysine), and trace elements (manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, sodium selenite).

Guaranteed Analysis:
In Percentages:
Crude Protein (min) 4.5
Crude Fat (min) 1.0
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0
Moisture (max) 92.0

Formula Two
Ingredients:
Plankton, gel binder, spinach, shrimp, krill, clams, krill hydrolysate, lettuce, peas, sardine meal, salmon egg oil, squid, kelp, lecithin, casein, spirulina, cod liver oil, paprika, vitamins (choline chloride, ascorbic acid including stabilized vitamin C, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamin mononitrate, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, beta-carotene supplement, biotin), amino acids (dl-methionine, taurine, lysine) and trace elements of manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, and sodium selenite.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 17.0%
Crude Fat (min) 1.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 0.5%
Moisture (max) 82.0%
(Protein as percentage of dry matter - 94.4%)

 

[TerryB]

It is good to add variety to the diet. I would also include Lee's suggested foods. I hope that you have changed the antibiotic and looked for some Beta glucan. I doubt that the fish will recover at this point without proper medication. There is a possibility that the fish has tuberculosis. The lesions would be consistent with the diagnosis, but the fish are usually sick longer than a couple of weeks before they have difficulty swimming. Good luck with it all.
BTW, I like your personal signature. Insanity is certainly a part of this hobby.

Terry B

 

[gdm42001]

TerryB,
I have not picked up the beta glucan just yet, she is not eating.
The lesion on her side, may be from hitting a rock while diving under it. Not sure at this point but it appeared overnight.
I picked up some BiFuran+ which contains nitrofurazone and furazolidone as the active ingredients.

 

[gdm42001]

I have brought the Salinity down to 1.016, trying not to be to hard on her. I would like to have it closer to 1.009 however My job appears to be interfiering with my reefkeeping.
Not much change, she is still not eating.

 

[TerryB]

You are going to have to act fast to have a chance to save this fish. The nitrofurazone may help if the problem is a simple bacterial infection. You can add vitamins to the water in the quarantine tank. The fish will adsorb them from the water. Did I already ask you about your water source? Did you try a large water change before you did anything else?

Terry B

 

[gdm42001]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6806614#post6806614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
You are going to have to act fast to have a chance to save this fish. The nitrofurazone may help if the problem is a simple bacterial infection. You can add vitamins to the water in the quarantine tank. The fish will adsorb them from the water. Did I already ask you about your water source? Did you try a large water change before you did anything else?

Terry B

Terry, the water source is RO/DI
Same water I use for my reef.
He is in a hospital tank, so a 100 percent water change when I put her in it last weekend, and I have changed out 7 or 8 gallons with fresh RO/DI water while lowering the Salinity. It is a 20 gallon tank. I have been adding Vitamin C, from Kent

 

[gdm42001]

I added the BiFuran+ this morning before leaving for work