Sick powder brown

[boca rat]

Come back from a trip, looking very ill indeed, on his last (fish) legs.

Any idea?

I had an outbreak of what I thought was ick after adding a few new fish including a purple tang. I treated that with ick attack and things seemed to have settled down until now.

To be honest I think it is too late, but I need to protect what is left in the tank, esp. the purple of course.

 

[fpv930]

That is one sick looking fish. Poor guy. If this fish is that bad you might think of removing the fish from the system and treating.

Be sure to read the sticky on this forum: "Marine Ich (cryptocaryon irritans) - the real scoop"

 

[boca rat]

So you think definitely ich then? This fish was fine Sunday night....(

I started treating with ich attack again, and pulled the brown out already and trying hyposalinity but I reckon way too late. Sucks, I've had this guy for a couple of years.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Whoa! First I'd throw the ich attack away. What do the other fish look like? By the looks of it I'd say a very very severe case of ich, BUT I wouldn't rule out velvet. ALL fish should be removed and treated with copper. Most likely the powder brown won't handle a FW bath, and getting into hypo conditions promptly will do more harm than good. He has a severe bacterial infection as well. This doesn't happen overnight. My guess is that the ick attack was doing nothing (just a minute ammount of formalin) therefore knowing the lifecycle of the parasite, it happened to reach plague proportions while you were gone. Crypto needs 12 weeks with out a fish host to die off, velvet 8.

Did you add any new fish to the tank in the last month?

 

[MitchSutherland]

How long was your trip? And does the tang have a powdery look to it or just white dots?

 

[Rea17]

Whoa! First I'd throw the ich attack away. What do the other fish look like? By the looks of it I'd say a very very severe case of ich, BUT I wouldn't rule out velvet. ALL fish should be removed and treated with copper. Most likely the powder brown won't handle a FW bath, and getting into hypo conditions promptly will do more harm than good. He has a severe bacterial infection as well. This doesn't happen overnight. My guess is that the ick attack was doing nothing (just a minute ammount of formalin) therefore knowing the lifecycle of the parasite, it happened to reach plague proportions while you were gone. Crypto needs 12 weeks with out a fish host to die off, velvet 8.

Did you add any new fish to the tank in the last month?

+1 what's the timeline here? How long ago did you add the purple?

Do NOT use hypo if you are unsure of the diagnosis as velvet is a possibility, or in a case this severe if it is ich. I would pull all of the fish and treat them with cupramine.

 

[boca rat]

OK, more info. I ran a 150g for 2-3 years, no issues. Moved everything to a new 175 a month ago and at the same time (I know , I know), a purple and yellow tang came up at the same time from a club member who I have dealt with a for a long time came up. He needed to get them out fast for personal reasons.

Everything was fine for a week or so, and then the purple went down with what several folks said was ich. Not as bad as this though. The brown and a majestic also started having issues.

Started treating with ich attack as couldn't face tearing everything down to get the fish out, and my local buddies all agreed they could well just fight it off in time themselves anyway.... Interested in hearing comments on that one. Also bought a fire shrimp that fish were queuing up to be cleaned by the minute he went in the tank - sign of parasites?

3 day trip, left Monday morning before lights came on, back Weds night after lights out. Thursday at 2pm....oh sh*t.

Pulled the brown last night, dead this morning, but no surprise, he went down hill really fast which sucks as I have had him 2+ years, great fish,

Current livestock:
6" Majestic angel
Med. Yellow tang
Med. Purple tang
Skunk clown
12" Engineer goby
Black widow blenny
Falco hawk
Flame hawk
Flame tail blenny
Banggai
Prob another one I have missed
Two anemones
Multiple star fish
Fire shrimp might still be in there

So, suggestions on quarantine tank size? I also have a 40L with 2 Bangaiis and 2 clowns, and a 20L frag tank.

I am not sure I can face tearing everything down after building a dream tank/stand setup....(

Why do you say throw away the Ich Attack? What is Velvet?

Need to start reading up.

Thx for all the help. Much appreciated. (I feel like a freaking beginner after 11 years in the hobby)

 

[xanthurum]

Looks like Velvet not ich.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Looks like Velvet not ich.

I'm thinking a combo of both. If were only velvet, it would not show up in pictures as well. Velvet tends to be less white and more bronzy in color.

 

[MitchSutherland]

velvet is also a parasite. Their treatments are relatively the same since ich is also a parasite. The main difference is the reaction time. With ich you have much more time to decide what to do and get treatment started. But marine velvet is a fast killer(powder brown possibly). It gives an appearance of a a white powdery substance covering your fish. While ich is more just white spots. Your powder brown did have a bacterial infection of some sort. This is shown by the skin above his eye looks like it was deteriorating. This could be from the glare of lighting hard to tell. If any of your fish start rapid gilling and become powdery in appearance then you better setup a quarantine system fast. Have some fake decorations and ro water mixed with salt ready to do daily water changes on your QT. The tank must be empty for a minimum of 8 weeks for velvet but ich is 12 weeks. This honestly is going to be hard since you have so much live stock. You need a QT of some sort whether its ich or velvet. If money is tight a 55gallon rubber maid should do the trick. NEXT YOU NEED A COPPER TEST KIT! Follow the dosing instructions on the bottle but double check with the test kit. Copper will kill your inverts so they stay in the DT. You will also have a hard time with ammonia levels obviously because of no beneficial bacteria in your qt. Copper can also kill off false ammonia readings on test kits. Seachem sells a meter that can tell the difference between safe and toxic ammonia.(worth looking in to) You will be doing water changes almost 3 times a day with that much live stock and no bacteria. i would see if your lfs has any seeded sponges. Buy them. get a couple sponge filters or just jank freshwater filters filled with the seeded sponges and have them going. maybe two powerheads to keep the water moving. Prime i read will make copper toxic. (If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu+2(copper) will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.) SO NO PRIME AND COPPER TOGETHER. Treatment is usually 2 to 3 weeks. Then after i would use prazi pro and macryn 2(i think) for bacterial infections. I would not mix these medications. But after 12 weeks, they can go back in the dt. Sorry for the long response just trying to help. If i missed anything or am wrong any where just correct me. Sorry in advance.

 

[boca rat]

Great response, can't be too long at this stage.....

I am looking at the QT right now and will sacrifice some rock for filtration. I have a CPR bak pak on my 20L right now, so will tear that down, put the frags in my 40L breeder and use the equipment for a QT. Trouble is I can get a 29 (or maybe a 55, not sure yet) this afternoon. I hope that will be soon enough,a d the tank will be big enough for the duration.

Ugh, the thought of getting all the fish out....means getting all the rock out first.

 

[MitchSutherland]

You can sacrifice the rock. Copper will soak into it. SO you need the copper test kit now.
That rock will not be able to be used again according to popular belief. It might not be velvet. Hopefully its just ich and bacterial. The powdery appearance is the main key. Thats how i tell the difference anyway. The ammonia kit that can tell the difference between free and toxic ammonia is absolutely just as important or youll just be killing yourself with water changes. Put the rock back into the DT once you get all the fish out. Thats your plan right?

 

[Mrscribbled]

A bottle of Instant Ocean Bio-spira, sponge filter or HOB work great for QT set-up filtration. Make sure the bio-spira does not freeze. Furan-2 is another great antibiotic, I prefer over Maryacyn 2 personally.

 

[MrTuskfish]

A bottle of Instant Ocean Bio-spira, sponge filter or HOB work great for QT set-up filtration. Make sure the bio-spira does not freeze. Furan-2 is another great antibiotic, I prefer over Maryacyn 2 personally.

I agree. And keeping Cu at a constant and therapeutic level is impossible with LR in the tank.

 

[boca rat]

Ok, quick update. About to lose the Skunk by the look of things...(

55g on the way, just built a stand for it. Ready to fill and move.

I am fine losing a few pieces of live rock, which sounds like a good alternative to 3x/day water changes which is not going to be feasible. I'd rather test for copper daily than do that.

I have yet to move sick fish from an old tank to brand new fresh water. Assuming temp and salinity the same, would you acclimate?

Given the speed that things are going down hill, sounds like velvet and they do look powdery vs. white spots.

Oddly, the healthiest looking fish right now is the purple (and the two hawks).

 

[Deinonych]

Ok, quick update. About to lose the Skunk by the look of things...(

55g on the way, just built a stand for it. Ready to fill and move.

I am fine losing a few pieces of live rock, which sounds like a good alternative to 3x/day water changes which is not going to be feasible. I'd rather test for copper daily than do that.

I have yet to move sick fish from an old tank to brand new fresh water. Assuming temp and salinity the same, would you acclimate?

Given the speed that things are going down hill, sounds like velvet and they do look powdery vs. white spots.

Oddly, the healthiest looking fish right now is the purple (and the two hawks).

I would use DT water so you don't have to worry about acclimation. You're going to kill any parasites lingering in the water anyway.

I personally would go the Bio-spira route and not use live rock. If you are using copper to treat, having rock in the tank makes it extremely difficult to maintain the correct Cu concentration. The rock will absorb the medication and could also leach it back out. Maintaining therapeutic levels of Cu is difficult enough in and of itself, and adding another significant variable increases the challenge many times over.

 

[boca rat]

Stand built, tank filled and ready to roll. LFS had Coppersafe.

Majestic going down hill fast so was easy to catch. Surprised how bad he looks in a white bucket compared to under the lights....was panting so put him straight into QT tank. Fingers crossed. Next will be rock out.

 

[boca rat]

I would use DT water so you don't have to worry about acclimation. You're going to kill any parasites lingering in the water anyway.

I personally would go the Bio-spira route and not use live rock. If you are using copper to treat, having rock in the tank makes it extremely difficult to maintain the correct Cu concentration. The rock will absorb the medication and could also leach it back out. Maintaining therapeutic levels of Cu is difficult enough in and of itself, and adding another significant variable increases the challenge many times over.

Believe it or not lent all my hoses for water changes yesterday to a buddy who is moving house..... so used fresh (salt!) water as QT is right next to my reservoirs.

Not sure if LFS has Bio-spira, will check, thanks.

 

[boca rat]

Update: all rock out, all fish out. Except my Falco Hawk has gone awol......nothing in overflows or sump, back of tank is sealed so unless he was hiding in a rock that is now in a bucket. Going to have to leave the tank half full, MP40 running and hope he comes out later.....Anyone know if they burrow?

Had to sacrifice a choice piece of rock - flame tail goby dived into one of his holes and won't come out.

Engineer goby looks dreadful - covered in mucus....

Jeex, what a day and still have to re-landscape...

 

[Deinonych]

I know what you are going through. Had to do the same earlier this year. It's not fun at all. Hope your fish pull through!